He-111 Bomber

[fffreeze220]

WWII has the 111
We have a flight modell !

[Replicant]

Geez, lufties getting pretty upset about asking for a German plane!

Remember, the main topic is:- Was checking out WWII Online and they finally got the He-111. Wonder when they will get it here in AH

So when we've run out of aircraft to model you still don't want the He111?

I've always been open minded and very optimistic about requests for particular aircraft.  Just because it's not survivable in the MA doesn't mean it should not be modeled.  Easy targets could be applied to quite a few in AH but they still get used, albeit a lot less than many others.  All 'The Cage' is asking is when it might arrive here.  No one knows but no doubt it will do at some stage.  To then argue saying it's crap is rubbish because it may or may not even arrive.  It really depends on what priorty HTC gives the MT over the MA.  They have introduced quite a few scenario type planes such as the Spit I, Hurr I, SBD, Val, Kate, Ju87, etc...

Of course we need other bombers from other countries (there's many a very important and survivable bombers missing from most countries), but this topic is NOT about that, The Cage has asked about the He111 so calm down everyone!  I just can't understand the hijacking and put down by some people on this BBS!?

Of course I'd love to see a He177, or even something from Russia or Japan, but that has nothing to do about this topic!

Regards

[Replicant]

Originally posted by Bodhi
Not to be rude Replicant, but just exactly how can one of the most produced bombers on the axis side not be important to the MA?  I am no fan of buffs to begin with, but guess what both the He-111, He-177, and Do-17 have as an important role as will the Soviet Pe2, Kate, and Sally.  

I think you've totally misunderstood me.  I'm all for any inclusion of aircraft into AH.  I totally agree that it's one of the most important aircraft but HTC may prefer to introduce more survivable aircraft into AH before they choose the He111.  It all comes down to what priorities they have, whether they go for the MT or the MA.  For example, if the MT turns into a success (??) then it may be high on their list.  If it isn't a success then it'll most likely drop down their list for the MA.

[hyena426]

when i asked the same thing cage did long time ago,,i got the same responce from the same people,,lol<~~they dont like the plane for some reason,lol,,and it shouldnt matter if they like it or not,,it was a very importaint peice of the war

it sad too see a bomber left out,,like the liberator and he111,,just because some one didnt like it,,,,those 2 bombers i just mentioned are the some of the most produced bombers on each side<~~and did most of the work,,,if you leave them out ,it is just wrong,,this is a ww2 simulator it should have atleast the most produced planes first

i too like funny weird planes that were hardly used,,but shouldnt we have the most used planes first? right?,,lol

[hyena426]

I think you've totally misunderstood me. I'm all for any inclusion of aircraft into AH

 me too,,i think every ww2 plane should be in here,,but,,shouldnt the most produced be here first?

[TheCage]

I have been one that flies many of the scenarios in the SEA.    One of the sorely needed aircraft needed for the BOB is the He-111.   That is the only reason I was asking.    There are a great many other planes that are needed to make the scenarios in the SEA more historical and should in my opinion be modeled before any more late war planes.   The French aircraft are non-existent in this game and many Russian, British, Australian, Japanese, and Italian planes don't exist.   Some of the smaller countries even had aircraft that showed they were equal to the best of the German aircraft aren't even considered and some of those aircraft flew throughout the war.   FYI I am not a buff pilot, I fly P-38's in the MA.  

Here is a list of just bombers and they're production numbers although it doesn't cover every bomber type produced.

German:

* Ju-88 - 14,980
  He-111 - 7,300
  Do-217 - 1,730
  Do-17 - 1,200
  He-177 - 980
  Fw-200 - 276
* Ar-234 - 274  (includes 30 prototypes, and 20 pre production)

Russian:

Pe-2 - 11,427
Db-3 - 6,800
Sb-2 - 6,656
Tu-2 - 2,527
Pe-8 - 81

British:

  Wellington - 11,462
* Lancaster - 7,377
  Mosquito - 6,535
  Halifax - 6,176
  Blenheim - 3,296
  Whitley - 1,814

Italian:

S.M. 79 - 1,370
P.108 - 182

Japanese:

   Ki-21 - 2,064
   Ki-46 - 1,742
* Ki-67 - 698
  GM4 - 2,446

American:

* A20 - 7,385
   A-26 - 2, 450
* B-17 - 12,731
  B-24 - 18,482
  B-25 - 9,816
* B-26 - 4,683
  B-29 - 3.960

[HoHun]

Hi Bodhi,

>Plane sets should be added, again IMHO, in accordance with their production numbers.  

That certainly is one possible criterium.

However, production numbers neglect capability, and on a server without historical planeset changes, an older plane produced in higher numbers might be a worse choice than a more capable aircraft of lower production.

If you select capability as criterium, you'll find that the current planeset already has a Luftwaffe medium bomber (Ju 88) and a Luftwaffe high-speed bomber (Ar 234), but no Luftwaffe heavy bomber yet.

The He 177 fits this description, and since more than 800 aircraft rolled off the lines, it certainly qualifies as mass-production type.

The He 111 would be a great alternative for a Luftwaffe medium bomber and should be added to the game for its historical significance, but not for the merit of higher production numbers alone.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

[hyena426]

Luftwaffe medium bomber and should be added to the game for its historical significance, but not for the merit of higher production numbers alone.

 good quote,,now the he111 was very importaint in the spanish rev,,and impotaint to b.o.b,,and it would give italy a bomber it really needs sence it dont have any<~~italy was a powerfull country back then,,and desurve a bomber too,,so i guess there are a few reasons for it too be here than just production numbers,,historicaly it merits being in here


but i understand there are so many planes out there to be added, the he177 would be a great plane!! but would it burn up once and a while for no reason like the real thing?,,it was a very pain in the butt bomber,,full of problems and wasnt used as much,,,im sure if its added people will use it like crazy! just because unlike the real plane,, im sure the aces high version wont catch on fire all the time and kill the crews on the take off strip,,lol i think it was the only german bomber that killed more of its crews then the enemy,,lol

[TheCage]

However, production numbers neglect capability, and on a server without historical planeset changes, an older plane produced in higher numbers might be a worse choice than a more capable aircraft of lower production

So what your saying is that 2/3 of the plane set were a waste of HTC time?  I don't think so.

I think historical importance should be the first consideration, not whether it will  in your opinion survive in the MA.   The P-40 is a 1930's fighter that seems to do well in the MA when flown by good sticks.   Same goes for the Zero and Hurricanes.   When it comes to shooting down bombers I think the B-26 is the toughest while the A-20 makes a great bomber and in some cases a good fighter.  

As far as the 177 goes the crews use to call it the "Flying Coffin" as was as good of a plane as the F-111 was.   It too was considered a flying coffin also.   Both planes were dismal failures.

What I don't understand is where you think the He-177 would fair any better then the He-111.   The 111 was known for being a tough bird and it's saving graces were that toughness.   The He-177 was structurally unsound and would be easier to knock out of the sky then the Boston we currently have now.   It's engines were totally unreliable, and caught fire more often then not.   As was stated before, it killed more crews then any enemy action did.   Pilots and crew hated the bird to no end and so the nickname flying coffin came about.   If HTC modeled all this into the plane I seriously doubt anyone would bother to fly it.

Lastly the biggest difference besides bomb loads were the fact the He-111 was designed to be a level bomber.   The He-177 was designed to be a massive dive bomber which it could not do.   Heinkel himself knew it was a mistake and tried to correct the problem but the RLM didn't want to hear it.   At his own expense he created the He-277 which was the same plane but with four engines that actually turned out to be a much superior bomber.   Again the RLM told Heinkel to cease and desist, and the project was abandoned.

[hyena426]

oohh the 4 engine one,,aint that the plane they flew over new york city? really high about 40,000 feet or somthing?,i seena  thing on discovery talking about it once,,and said it was the only german bomber that could fly to usa and back,,and the only bomber that did it!!,,lol


but yes,,he111 is a good bird,,and there aint one plane on aces high i dont use!!<~~i use everyone of them,,from the sbd to the c47 to the bf109,,you name it i fly no matter how bad of a plane some people think it is,,,and from what the crews say,,the he111 was a good plane,,,and very well armored,,and the late model had a good gun aray:)

the he177 was a coffin,,it looks cool,,and the performance sounds like its the best! but when you see how much the crews liked it,,you will get a good idea how crappy the plane really was,,lol i would like too see it anyways,,lol i think every ww2 production plane desurves to be seen<~~including planes that are not popular

[TheCage]

Hyena the plane your thinking of was the Ju-390 (Bomber version).   It had a 6,027 mile range and flew right up to the 12 mile limit off the cost near New York in October of 1943.  America bombers that were considered were a modified version of the Bv-222 flying boat, and the Ultra long range Me-264, which resembled the B-29 but with twin tails.  Max range on the Me-264 was 9,321 miles.   Only one prototype was built and tested.  Due to Allied bombing of the factory, the project was canceled.  

The RLM had two plans for the 264.  One was to fly a lighter load, bomb the US then return home.   The second idea was to carry the max load, bomb the US, then ditch in the Atlantic near a Uboat.  How ever fighter production at that time became more important so the America bombers were shelved.   The last project to get around building bombers was the V3 rocket.   If completed would of been the first iintercontinental rocket.  It would of been able to hit cities along the US coast.

Here is a little known fact, the He-111 was upgraded once with four engines.   It was called the He-116, but never was used as a bomber.   Only six were built, and those were used for high altitude photo recon only.

[hyena426]

wow,,i never seen that version of the he111,,lol,,and i know they used the he111 for lots of experiments,,it could do about anything,,launch bombs,,rockets,,guided bombs,,i love seeing the version with the 120mm cannon,,,looked like it could rock a few bases,,lol


ok,,i wasnt sure of the name of the plane that flew next to new york,,i new it was a 4 engine plane,,and hitler didnt want any 4 motor planes till it was too late,,too stuck in the past,,lol,,so i figured it had to be one of them planes,,lol but you know your planes ,,,,most people wouldnt have any idea what i was talking about:)

ya the v3 would of been messed up,,or that catipilar gun they were planning to use on england,,now that thing was a monster,,wildest lookin gun i ever seen,lol

[whgates3]

He-116

[AtmkRstr]

BoB won't be a BoB without a He111.

[Blunder]

I actually want to see the He177 in AH, what do u want with the He111? yeah nice plane, but itīs not better then the Ju88 we currently have..
But why not the He177? yeah i know itīs big problems with his engines and structural limits, but i think we will get the Me163 with the next Patch?! Itīs just the same catastrophe with that plane, hard to land and it had even big take-off problems, even 80% of the Me163 were caused by technical problems.
But that problems will be not simulated in AH (correct me if i am wrong), but we still get it, so why donīt we get the He177 with 12klb Bomb load and much better defensive abilities then the He111? Oh and btw the He177 Greif was designed as a 4engine-plane, and it has 4Engines (2 x 2-linked-DB603 or 2x 2-linked DB601 engines, the He277 got 4single DB603 engines)
Ok thank u for listening my broken english and just keep in mind, thatīs only my opinion.