The road to Buff-killing

[Soda]

I think the general mentality of AH doesn't really point to a more indepth strategic model, in general.  Lots of people come here for the quick furball and could care less about investing a lot of time bombing strategic targets.  That's totally valid.  It would be impossible to put constraints on all that without negatively impacting a larger percentage of the AH subscribers.

Still, for the couple of people who like to play the "whole" AH game, including the strategic elements as they exist, the bombing is a very important aspect that can seriously alter the balance of the battle.  It is important because it is very effective and shifting the entire outcome of a country and thus turns off another group of players.

I like seeing bomber raids come in to try and hit important targets, and I don't mind facing them at every turn to help save "the homeland", but then people cheat, and that is what gaming the game is, then it doesn't make it fun as you seem to have found laz.

I just wish HTC would plug some of these loopholes, or at least comment on them rather than for the same 10 problems to get mentioned over and over again but nothing apparantly be done about them.  There is no good reason to strato-bomb other than to boost score or to make a joke of the real game that AH is.

-Soda

[lazs]

soda.. I think that is well reasoned and obvious to most who are not too narrowly focused.   The way that the "strat" is now is that it only limits vehicles from being available.   I think that most people feel this is a fighter sim and a lot of people who wish to fly fighters in a ..... well, fight... get pretty miffed when all they see is fields with two buildings down 3 deep and the message "u are unable to take off from that field".... It looks and feels gimicky and chintzy.

If the fields were maybe easier to take but fighters (planes) were available till the very end then.... many who don't participate in "strat" (because it's boring and phony) would get cought up in the defense and taking of fields.   If for nothing else, for the action.   Fields would close faster and people could see what was going on at a glance plus resets would happen easier.
lazs

[Soda]

laz, back in the early versions of AH you couldn't close a field to fighters, you could always spawn.  It lead to endless vulching situations where planes would just circle and run up 20 kill sorties killing people as they took off.  It was very phoney, moreso in my opinion than the current model.

The version of strategy here is pretty simple, but I think it at least works, while not being great, it's not complicated and leaves several options to users to accomplish a goal.  I think it's not too bad, though I wish people wouldn't be able to use "cheats" to circumvent the way it is implemented.  You could never really have true strategy since that involves all kinds of factors you could never really model in a game (social, economic, personal, military).

If this is to be discussed anymore it should be in it's own topic though since this is way off the original reason for this thread.

I did kill 3 Lancs last night, had little time to set up good approaches on any of them, but had friendly help nearby and got all three with only 1 or 2 pings in return.  It showed how unbalanced the battle becomes for bombers when they are out-numbered 2 on 1.

-Soda

[Apache]

 

It lead to endless vulching situations where planes would just circle and run up 20 kill sorties killing people as they took off.

How did changing the "strat" stop this? It didn't. This can still be done. Just don't take out the fh's and there ya have it. Nah, should be able to spawn if you choose until the entire field is closed, not just downing the fh's, IMO.

[Nash]

Nice of ya to say lazs... though I was only talking about buffs, as per the original post, in purely tactical terms. Not strategic. That's another matter and I don't really have an opinion on it other than to say that I wouldn't be against any improvements.

The trouble I'm having is that the suggestions and complaints coming from you and others seems to be coming in... how do I word this?... little pieces... and often I look at each of the suggestions and think to myself "yes, ya could do that, makes sense... but if ya did that what are ya gonna do when (X) happens as a result? It wouldn't work"...

I do see yer points, but they only seem to work in isolation.

I suggest, for a real discussion on Strat (because come on - we need *something* - just not "gimmicky" as you say), that you create a new post titled something along the lines of "Lazs' definitive suggestion for a strat overhaul". Come up with a solution and try to create something that covers *all* of the contingencies (eg. Soda's pointing out the result when fighters could still spawn).

You can't take it piecemeal like this. Everything effects everything else. The only way to seriously tackle this is go right back to the drawing board and design a whole new strat system. If ya want changes to the strat you simply *need* to give it that amount of thought.

But I for one would be *very* interested if you tackled something like this... rather than specific complaints/suggestions that are often incongruous with the other strat elements. I think it would be a worthwhile discussion. Personally, I don't have too much of a problem with the current strat model. You, on the other hand, seem like you'd be up for something like this.

It would probably be the only way to get any of your smaller, detailed gripes addressed.

[Soda]

It did change it, though you can still resort to vulching for hours if you want now.  But there is a different option, where there didn't used to be.

People would just wait for the goon to arrive, then all spawn in a big pack so it was impossible to kill them.  They'd all grab planes to strafe the ground, or have bombs which they would drop to kill the troops.  It was almost impossible to capture a field if a couple of people sat there in wait for the goon to arrive.  You could NEVER protect the goon properly since one person could spoil the whole attack and there was nothing you could do about it.

It sure pisses me off not being able to spawn at a field to defend, then again, that just means the enemy has done their job to deny me that.  Endless spawning sucks, we've been down that road before and I'm glad it isn't the issue it is now.

-Soda

[Apache]

<S> Soda. I guess it depends on what side of the coin you're on. You're post proves a point. Fields are ridiculously easy to take now. How realistic ( and I apologize for using the "R" word )is it to disable air-ops by simply killing 1 or 2 buildings? I think one should "work" for the capture if thats what they wanna do. Take down the whole field, all of it, then that disables air-ops. Once thats down, your scenario of a mass spawn wouldn't be an issue.

[This message has been edited by Apache (edited 03-23-2001).]

[lazs]

nash... really, i do see your point.  I have laid out in the past my idea for a large arena with seperate "area's"..  what happens if you get too detailed is that people tend to pick one or another detail and focus on that only.  throwing out the baby with the bathwater.   OTOH, i dissagree that you can't make small changes.   adding revetments would kill some of the gimicky feel to the capture and allow fighters to take off for longer or till most of the field was down.

I don't think you can seperate the issues of bomber concessions with strat.  If you make the bombers too defensless then they will just not be unused.  Bomb damage should be more realistic but so should the targets.  If the fighters are "forced" to attack buffs and the only way to attack them in a timely and usefull manner is suicide.... Buffs become/are even more resented.   Many fighter jocks (as apache says) are very resentfull that their fun can be "spoiled" so easily by bombers.

If fields were easier to close and capture but fighters available till the end then you would have more people participating in the strat.  As it is.... The bombers are using fighter availability and limits as their sole strat.   many who are only interested in fighters only see that some "jerk" in a bomber is ruining all the fights and/or making them take off from 2-3 fields away.   In light of how few actual resets we have it seems even more silly and contrived with bombers having it all their way.

Believe me... We do not admire this skill.
lazs