G Tolerance

[Innominate]

I suspect it may be a net-code thing, along the lines of "Don't move your controls so quickly"  15G's for a split second repeatedly could wreak havoc on the netcode.

Still, IMO a hard limit on G-forces, limiting the stick pull to 12g's(or even less) is a better way to go than the obviously gamey 12g deaths.

[Yeager]

Im of the opinion, especially from a gameplay perspective, that the level of burst Gs (as well as sustained Gs) should be charted to require preset lengths of time to recover from.

The harder and longer the Gs forces being exposed to, the longer the times for recovery from blackout should be.

Ive long since tired of the LA7, Spit, N1K crowd pulling bursts of 8-12gs then gaining near instant recovery usually in good offensive position.  I believe these high G survival manoevers should require a more severe timed recovery from blackouts.  

Im aware of different two lenghts of recovery time from blackouts in AH (near instant quarter second blackouts and very rarely -
long 10 second blackouts) but they do not appear related to near instant heavy G force exposure only lengthy G force exposure.

Blah blah blaaaaah...same goes for redouts.

[GScholz]

All A/C has a designed max load factor, the maximum number of G's the airframe can handle without suffering lasting deformations. However in an emergency this limit can be exceeded up to the designed breakage load factor, but with lasting deformations and a weakening of the airframe as a result. During WWII the typical max load factor was 7-8 G's with a 1.5 G safety margin. This means that the A/C would start to fall apart at about 9-10 G's, but not instantaneously. Pulling 12 G's for more than a second would surely overstress the airframe.

Pilots OTOH would not die or even G-loc at 12 G's if it was held for no more than a couple of seconds. Grey-out or a short temporary loss of vision, yes ... but not loss of consciousness.

Modern jets have much higher G tolerance. Typically around 9 G’s. The Mig-29 has a designed max load factor of 12 G’s, and in one near midair collision at supersonic speed a Mig-29 was reported to have suffered more than 20 G’s. Both A/C and pilot made it home, but the A/C was scrapped.

[funkedup]

Limit Load = The load factor limit ("G limit") that the pilot is supposed to obey.  This is what you will find in operating manuals.  The plane will not fall apart at this load, nor will any damage occur if the plane is in pristine condition.

Ultimate Load = Load where plastic deformation occurs.  Airframe is permanently damaged.  Generally 1.5 times Limit Load.  This is not neccesarily a fracture load.  Airframe will be bent but not broken.

Limit Load is less than Ultimate Load because of fatigue considerations and uncertainty in stress calculations.

The 1.5 factor is a US convention.  I'm pretty sure some WW2 fighters had smaller factors.

[eagl]

Forget it puke, it won't work.  At more than one con I spent over an hour trying to explain G effects to either HT or Pyro, and even though I bought dozens of drinks, the most I got from them was "hmmm interesting", and years later the only visible change is that the grayout effect has gotten much nicer

Seriously, I know its easier for the HTC guys to listen to calm, cool, collected feedback and maybe it's just my personality, but I've discussed the G limits with them since CK beta and I still don't know if they ever listened or simply discarded my inputs.

On one of the last T-37 sorties before I was grounded for my back problem, I pulled 6.5 G's for an extended period of time.  I suffered no grayout whatsoever and no excessive fatigue, even though I was not wearing a G suit.  I've given them as many hard facts as I could with regards to real people pulling G's in actual combat (I flew a BFM training sortie in the F-15E without my G-suit connected and the adrenaline was enough to let me pull over 8 G's several times throughout the sortie with no grayout) and centrifuge experiences (7.5 sustained with no G-suit) but the limits remain where they are.

I have never been given back any feedback from HTC about this, so the only thing I can think of is that they are simulating the G tolerances a WWII pilot might have.  That WWII pilot was a heavy smoker, heavy drinker, was either inexperienced or had combat fatigue, and had very little training regarding Gs because almost no research had been done in that area and so any anti-G strain was largely anecdotal techniques passed from instructor to student.  All this changed with the G-suits in the P-51 according to my limited knowledge of history, but I do not know when that research occurred and when the pilots began receiving formal anti-G training and techniques.

I do know that smoking will increase resting (no strain) G tolerance by about 1 G

[Casper]

Non-pilots will black out at about 5-6 G's in a matter of seconds.  When they come to, they feel woozy for up to an hour.  Experienced pilots with G-tolerance can handle varying degrees of G-force without even blinking an eye over it.  This ranges from 6-12 G.  Rarely can a human pilot exceed 9G without blacking out under any circumstances.

When a pilot DOES black out, he becomes unconcious, and the plane flies straight on course - or according to its trim settings, in the case of WWII warbirds.

Of course, in Aces High, when the pilot blacks out, the aircraft continues to fly under the high G load as if the pilot were awake and alert.

This needs to change.

I would prefer the pilot blackout, and then have limited command ability of his aircraft as he comes to.  The more a pilot blacks-out, the lower the G level he can take before blacking out again, and the longer he'll be blacked out for.  Air Warrior simulated this, why can't Aces High?

[GScholz]

Originally posted by funkedup
Limit Load = The "G limit" the pilot is supposed to obey.  This is what you will find in operating manuals.

Ultimate Load = Load where plastic deformation occurs.  Airframe is permanently damaged.  Generally 1.5 times Limit Load.

Limit Load is less than Ultimate Load because of fatigue considerations and uncertainty in stress calculations.

The 1.5 factor is a US convention.  I'm pretty sure some WW2 fighters had smaller factors.

Thanks for the English terminology Funkedup.

I seem to remember that the Germans obeyed a 1.5 G's safety margin for Ultimate Load (not 1.5 times Limit Load like the US).

[J_A_B]

"When a pilot DOES black out, he becomes unconcious"

This is not strictly correct.  "Blackout" and "G-LOC" is not the same thing.   Once you black out you can no longer see but you are still awake, however you had best stop pulling G's real quick like or else G-LOC will soon set in.

J_A_B

[Puke]

eagl, I wasn't really trying to convince HT of anything.  Also, I've never encountered this insta-death/too-many-G's thing myself and probably 'cause I try to fly w/out any severe maneuvering and keep my E up.  (I don't know how to maneuver really and it's related directly to not being able to translate the 2D screen view to a 3D view in my head of what's going on and the angles.)   I just saw a little discussion about it on Ch1 and it seemed a lot of people are confused.   12Gs does not result in death in and of itself.

Blackout is just a loss of vision...but you are still awake and aware and can still fly the aircraft by feel.  Loss of consciousness is entirely different and that results well after the loss of vision if you keep the G up.  

If HTC has it programmed this way because he thinks it replicates real world, then he's completely incorrect.  If he programs it this way for game-reasons, then that's okay and I'm fine with it.

[Swoop]

Yet again, a word from the great Cod HT would silence the masses......shall we all look upward in expectation or shall we just have faith?


Aw bollocks, faith sucks.

[rv6]

Very interesting reading.. escpecially the account given by a real F15 driver above.

My own 2 cents.. from several hours of rolling scissors in a Marchetti-SF260 light attack/fighter.. with accellerometer (G gauge).  
No  pnuematic g-suit.

A quick 4~5G pullout, you say.. WHoooWeee thats cool!

After the 4th or 5th rolling inverted tail-end chase, tight-loop,, Split-S bottoming out at +6gs, your eyes fill with yellow stars, the sound of roaring engine fades, it becomes a dreamlike state, all the pressure is gone, eyes only can focus in a baseball sized circle ahead.. circle getting smaller & smaller..

Head & Helmet now weigh 40lbs or more, and looking up through canopy top for opponent is now impossible because throat/neck muscles can not support the weight..  pain in shoulders as helmet ear pieces smash down into them..  Bottom jaw is pulled down, and you can't quite muster the strength to close your mouth..

Hand on control stick still works, just enough for the good sense in the brain to say; "ease off the pull or you are going under"

Squeeze & grunt stomach, growling aloud through clenched teeth, and miraculously the closing visual circle gets larger (slightly!)..

Top of next loop, brain says enuff of this toejam, lets do a negative push-over at the top..  PUSH stick forward, and do half-twist trying to put canopy vector on opponent..

Suddenly you realize that the you did not tighten the 5-point harness enough.  Body lifts off seat only inches, before harness bites,, helmet & head then squash into canopy top,, bending neck on 45 degree angle,, so that ear is flat on shoulder.  It stays there, until you pull stick back again.

Meanwhile, the 55 year old IP sitting in the next seat, is commenting, calmly as if in his EZ-chair at home..

"wonderful loop, there he goes!  Look up, there he is!  Ohh, that was a nice little split-s,,"

6.5 G's and I'm gone..  Next thing I hear is him softly calling my voice..  "Hello?  Helloooo?"

Go figure..

[MANDOBLE]

Which was the structural G limit for SpitIX? infinite:confused: ?

[Casper]

Originally posted by rv6
Very interesting reading.. escpecially the account given by a real F15 driver above.

If you believe that guy really flew an F15, I've got a bridge to sell you in New York.

Casper

[JB73]

i cant remember the name of the pilot but i saw a show on the history show about the begining of the jet age ejection seats....

in testing g forces he voulnteered as a test subject back in the '50's
he was put on a rocket sled and slowed down from 1800mph to 0 in something like 40 feet ... 86+ g's and survived .... yes he was blind for a few weeks because his eyes were engorged with blood and he had numerous other ailments ... but he survived.

oh well my 2¢

[Blue Mako]

Originally posted by Widewing
Many, if not most,COULD take 12g for short duration excursions. It takes time for materials to fail under load.

Yup, and that time is measured in milliseconds.  Current aircraft design practice is that the limits are set at 1/1.5 ultimate load (don't know what they were in WW2).  Ultimate load means just that, ultimate , exceed it and something breaks.  Usually that something is a wing spar.  Aircraft have to be designed lightweight or they will not fly.  It is unrealistic to think that you can hold your aircraft at or above the ultimate load for even a few seconds.

Grumman's F4F was so over-engineered that it could survive SUSTAINED (for as long as 15 seconds in some cases) loads in excess of 12g, without airframe damage. Grumman test pilot Corky Meyer has documented this in the pages of Flight Journal.

An isolated case that is probably true.  However, how heavily loaded was the aircraft at the time?  How heavy the aircraft is loaded determines the max G limit.  12g might have been still below the ultimate load of the airframe while lightly loaded.

This example adds no support to the argument that all WW2 aircraft should be able to handle G above the pilot limits.  This is an isolated anecdotal example.  (hehe big words)