Shooting

[Pongo]

I think this thread covers the issue in its entirety.
1) In WW2 aircraft didnt engage each other at 1000 yards for a vareity of reasons. Some small part training..some major part range finding. Some major part enviromental variables. The absence of these issues inflates the effective range of guns in AH. This is a known issue. It has nothing to do with lags effect on range. The first 2vs2 at the first AH con was settled at 900+ yards by Drex vs Ripsnort.. 2 machines 8 ft apart. The whole HTC staff right there to see it....(P38s by the way)

2)What do we do about it? Like Toad says and I think Il2 has done..fudge the bullets to make them less and less effective?
IL2 has two gunnery settings rediculously weak and rediculously powerful. Oleg cannont refute that kills of 600 yards where not imposible..they were not common but they were not imposible. He cannot refute that 109F4s shot down 5 or 6 P40s with 200 20mm rounds and landed with lots of ammo left...Try that in Il2.

I think in terms of normal range air to air combat...AH has it. The damage model in IL2 is graphically supperior and the details of a plane are more detailed (ie modeled with more precision and fidelity) but the effectiveness of guns in AH is more realisitic. If only they would jam or over heat!

But out beyond 500 yards...AH guns are too effective..but what to do..have the bullets disapear at 501 yards? You better remove all the extra weight of the 50 and hispano that enable those ranges then...Or increase the rof of both weapons as they get lighter and fire lighter rounds.. How do you neuter them?Have one generic 151/20 type weapon that all planes fly and ignore the longer range guns as too hard to model fairly?

tough problem. But neither game has it right. And I think AHs solution is supperior to Il2s on this issue.

GMAN...Let me know the weekend your lighting up the hispano..Ill fly out to see that...

[OnePunch]

"Bring Il2's gunnery/damage model to aces high."

Or you could go to Il2! Actually in your case you could just "go" period.  The last thing I want is LESS realism Like a bogus and botched b.s. gunnery system because some people think shots should be artificially hard beyond 200 in range. Next there will be calls to neuter the HO shot.  

"Historical from HTC i seriously doubt it."

But you wouldn't mind the awacs radar or full icons in a MA environment with Spit vs Spit or 109 vs 190?

(I checked your score to see where you flew instead of assuming you like the MA. But there is no score for a "onepunch" or even a "1punch." do you even fly in a pay to play arena? If your H2H. Then this whine will cost you $14.95 for this month)

Oed

First of all you little tard I never suggested bringing Il2 gun or damage system to aces High in any respect.I suggest you actually read what someone types rather than go on a diatribe of what you think is correct.
For your information you pathetic little ranter my name in the MA is Tequilla and I have just come back after some time off.
I suggest you go on a newbie name calling spree after you have spent some years here, for now shut up and learn to read what people post.

[TEXN]

Let's take a garden variety .300 win mag round.  At 1000 meters, it still has well over 870 foot pounds of energy.  That is a hell of a lot more than even a .44 magnum has at point blank range.

BS meter went off on this one. Check the ballistics tables on the energy for a .44 magnum.

[Wotan]

I was just in il2 109e4 vrs I16 Il2 (early no tail gunner)

I killed 3 and hit % was like 32%

109s4 fyi has 2 x 20mm mgff/m with 60 rpg in the wing. 3 kills in a 109e4 in ah is about what I got in the Cap event. Dont see now big lethality differences. It just matter in il2 what you hit and the angle that you hit it at. Also ah has hybrid rounds.

Hell heres the Sturmlog



YMMV

[Gman]

Actually Texan, wrong.

That is a direct quote from Major John Plaster, USMC, a person who knows just a tad bit more about sniping and long range ballistics and energy than you do.  He's written several books on the subject, do a search, as well as he runs a very respectable school similar to ours, his being in the USA, while ours is in Canada.

970 is the highest muzzle energy I've seen for factory .44 mag.  High 800's is a lowball figure for .300 win mag, 200 gr. rounds that most of the units I know shoot are all still well over 1000 ft/lbs at 1000 meters, so stick your BS meter.

[Griego]

Just a question. Does Piper angles have anything to do with bullet dispersion and range. What do bullets do after or beyond the piper settings do the hit each other? or do they just go on there merry way in the angle they were shot at.  Now I know there are planes like the p38 that piper setting are minimal.  Where 1000yd hit should be easier.

 If the piper is set for 300yds. Is that where all the bullets merge. Then after that what happens?  Do the bullets then go in a straight line to the target after that?
 
 Just wondering if this is modeled. I'm pretty sure that some bullets do reach the plane at 1000yds out,but not all bullets.

 What percentage of bullets reach the plane being shot at when the piper is set to 300yds. Is it less than 1% or as great as 100%.

 Just some thing that makes you go HMMM?

[Wotan]

The rounds from wing fired form a cone at 300 yards if all your gun are set to converge at that range.

I dont recall how wide the cone is off hand for say the 51 or 47 etc.... But the rounds dont all cross at that converge they form a cone.

In a vacuum I would assume if your converge is at 600 and the bullet pathes come together right at 600 then at 1200 yards they would be as wide apart as fired at 600.

Converge "works" in ah. I have been inside d200 and had jug fire at me and shoot both wing tips off.

Karnak alluded to the problem in his post. Range counters and the uni-hit sprits allow you to zero in. You can test bullet drop and convergence at different ranges using the .target command.

[Toad]

Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
You guys arent seriously trying to justify AH long range shooting by saying its possible to do so with a gun fixed on a solid shooting bench and firing at a fixed target on the ground. Lets curtail the fanaticism here, ok?

No, what I'm saying is that just about any heavy MG round in this game will easily go 1000 yards (and much more, actually) with plenty of energy left to do serious damage to any WW2 aircraft structure it might hit.

Some folks seem to think these round turn into cheezy poofs at anything over 500 yards or something.

And Toad remember what I said about all those AH cheerleaders whining about IL2...  Pretty good so far.

Sorry, don't remember. What did you say?

[mrniel]

don't fly straight even beyond d500

bullits have higer energy at altitude

a P47 can deliver close to 80 bullits pr sec. think minigun.

if you can damage some parts at that distance, then why not do it
makes the kill easyer.

be careful if the opponent have nosemounted guns, mossie P38
ect.

What they can do to you, you can also do to them

[Wotan]

you are still a n00b.

And from your 1st reply it obvious you didnt read what he wrote and went ahead and attributed what someone else typed to him.

[Dnil]

fyi i posted a boresite chart on the tbm in the aircraft section.  Dunno if that helps at all.

[GRUNHERZ]

Of course it will go over 1000 yards so will a 7.62 and prolly even some smaller rounds, but so what thats never discussed here. The question is what are the odds you will hit anything at that range. Hit it it from a moving platform, a moving shaking vibrating platfrom, firing from relatively flexible munts in wings, shoot at a moving target at 1000 yards, a tiny target at that range, then concentrate and keep that fire on that target for enough time to do damage.

Its far too easy in AH at long range, but I'm sure the pilots who praised no skill like a long range shot were just lying and it was really really easy to pick off targets at 600plus yards.  I just dont think so.


Seems to me that all the AH whine police numbers guys are pulling off an uninformed whine about IL2. Where is the data?

I think you guys are just whining because IL2 doesnt match your romance novel view of aircombat...

[Imp]

Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Of course it will go over 1000 yards so will a 7.62 and prolly even some smaller rounds, but so what thats never discussed here. The question is what are the odds you will hit anything at that range. Hit it it from a moving platform, a moving shaking vibrating platfrom, firing from relatively flexible munts in wings, shoot at a moving target at 1000 yards, a tiny target at that range, then concentrate and keep that fire on that target for enough time to do damage.

I dont think AH models gun vibrations Grunherz so thats not a valid point IMO.

AH pilot have how many hours of gun training compared to RL pilot?

[Karnak]

I think the solution is to lose the range indicator at 1,500 yards.

Spitfire at 3,400 yards =

SPIT
3.4


Spitfire at 1,500 yards =

SPIT
1.5


Spitfire at 1,499 yards =

SPIT


Spitfire at 458 yards =

SPIT

[Dnil]

yep the radar ranging we have allows such shots.  When icons are cut, I know for one that my shots change dramatically.