Question !

[udet]

cause US pilots were too dumb to ask for cannons

[Fancy]

Originally posted by brady
They tryed the Hispano but The US felt it was generaly more bother than it was worh, It jamed a lot, so it was not untill late in the war when planes like the Helldiver(a serious pos) and the C hog came to be...

Which is why, for balance's sake, things like jamming ought to be modelled.  Also, the RAF had considerable troubles with 4 cannon planes and wing warpage, especially when the cannons were fired while the wing was under duress.  When the Germans were upgragding to the MG151/20 from the MGFF, they had a prototype that had much the same velocity and trajectory that the hispano did.  They intentionally lowered the energy of the gun to avoid structural problems so that  they could mount MG151s on the outer parts of wings without worry of warpage (although, of course, there was the detriment to performance).

[Urchin]

Whats your source on that Fancy?  I hadn't ever heard that before.

[brady]

"However it should be noted that by mid 1945 the USN was completely commited to the 20Mill. The AAF did not make that commitment until the mid 50's."

 So the BearCat was a throwback? or conceaved priour to the Adaption of the 20mm policy?

" Which is why, for balance's sake, things like jamming ought to be modelled"

 It will never hapen in AH, it's a doubled edged sword.


 "Innominate"

   I do beleave that was the plain 50cal round, after a point, I know they were caried but I am not shure of the mix.

     but by the same token the Japanes 12.7 mm rounds were HEI and their tracers were APT, or armor piercing tracer rounds.

 This gets us back to the perenial debate of kenitic vs potential engery in the rounds caried, It is generaly beleaved both were very effective in their own right aganst aircraft tagrets, the real pluss in the Weapons like the German MG 131 and The Japanese Ho 103,Ho-5 were that they were lighter weapon "systems" over all more bang and less weight, which is very important in anything that goes into a plane.

[Wotan]

hes wrong urchin the e3 had mgff in the nose but heating problems caused them to shift the mgff to the wings in the later emils.

As a matter of fact it wasnt until the e7 that the spinnner was redsigned without the whole for the hub cannon. With the f series they solved the heating problem and had mg151/15 then later mg151/20.

That 15mm round had a high rof and being nose mounted its was much more accurrate then the 50s. The US even looked at that calibre.

The US could have saved weight and would have achieved better results with fewer hits if the had switched to cannons. As funked stated the thing with 50s were the rof and trajectory.

Imagine a jug with 2 30mm and plenty of ammo. In online games like ah wbs etc it would hurt the us planes because these games have a greater effective kill range using 50s. In realife range was not that much of a concern.

Prior to the start of the war the Brits tested the 50s and still preferred the 303s. Sakai wrote that he got most of his kills with 7mm. Even against sturdy planes like he f4f he found them effective. The penetration of the 50s against pilot armor and heavier aircraft is what made it a better round then the 303s. Cannon were still more effiecent though.

Inside 300 meters it didnt matter that much.

Check out those links I posted lotsa good stuff there.

[Replicant]

Here's a comparison of .303, .50 & 20mm Hispano.  Hope the quality is ok!

[BenDover]

hey, are those yours?

I have a 30mm RADEN round, and 5 rifle rounds, not sure if they're 5.56, or 7.62, looks like they're 7.62, most likely for the SA80 if they're a 7.62 round.



Btw, dropping a 30mm raden cannon round on your foot is not a wise thing to do, its heavy and hard:o

[Replicant]

Originally posted by BenDover
hey, are those yours?

I have a 30mm RADEN round, and 5 rifle rounds, not sure if they're 5.56, or 7.62, looks like they're 7.62, most likely for the SA80 if they're a 7.62 round.



Btw, dropping a 30mm raden cannon round on your foot is not a wise thing to do, its heavy and hard:o

Yep, they're mine.

The SA80 uses NATO 5.56mm rounds, not 7.62mm.  Just measure the width of the actual round to determine which you have.  The 5.56mm is very small compared to the 7.62.

[brady]

It is a very nice pick, my hispano rounds are US and are not painted, what does the collor denote>?

[Replicant]

I really don't know Brady.  White paint often mean that it's a training round, whether that's the case here?  or it's a HE round rather than AP?

[brady]

On mine the tip screws off and the Prodgectile is empty, the primers have also been punched out of the base of the casing.

 It is interesting puting your paw on these rounds realy gives you a since of comparative power to a certain extent, it can be deceaving though, in the Above Ho 103 pick for example a lot of the prodgectile is withen the casing so the round apears smaller than it actualy is.

[Replicant]

The 20mm round is hollow on mine, making me think it's either a HE round made hollow or a training round.  I have seen full metal jacket 20mm AP rounds but they're more expensive.  I'll be trying to get one sometime this year.  

I have a row of 9mm Parabellum, .38 Special, .44 Magnum, NATO 5.56, NATO 7.62, Browning .303, Browning .50 & Hispano 20mm rounds to show the comparison between them.  I'll be trying to get some German rounds this year too.  

I know what you mean by when you actually see the rounds up close you can see how & why some are more powerful than others.  The .50 is a beast and to think a plane like the P47 firing eight barrels worth of this round is well scary!

[davidpt40]

guess he's never heard of the p51s jamming probs under high Gs?

Guess you never heard that it was a P51 pilot who made a 7-g kill on a Fw190, which turns out to be the highest-g kill of WW2.

[hyena426]

i know when you look at 303 you see why its so weak and hard to knock planes down with it,,,its not a big round,,and the powder behind it is pathedic,,,i had a british 303,,,and still got a box of shells for it<~got rid of the poor thing,,lol,,,,i see the round having a hard time taking down a deer at 500 yards,,let alone a armored air plane,,lol,,at the firing range,,i would have to stick my site allmost 3 inch above the target to hit a 550 yard target at the gun range,,it didnt impress me at all,,lol<~~its kinda like a weak 308 round

it dont have the powder or kick of a 308 or 30.40 kreig,,,i wasnt happy with the round at all ,,i got rid of it,,because the kreig and the 308 would walk all over the 303<~which tends to tumble at long ranges,,,,people dont realize that 500 yards is a pretty far shot,,,i know at 500 yards you need a spotter scope just too see what you hit and were you hit,,,heck at the gun range i could hardly see the huge blue barrel that marked the spot were 550 yards was,,,,the 303 should drop more than it does on aces high

The 303 and 50s both had a flat trajectory and could put out a alot bullets

<~~go and shoot the 303 at a gun range,,then tell me how flat it travels,,lol

the 303 was out dated by the time the war started,,and should of been updated to a bigger more powerfull round to protect bombers,,good hunting rifle if your in the 100 too 300 yard range,,after that,,its pretty useless<~~its a good round for teenagers who wanna break into somthing with more power,,because it dont got the big kick of a 30.06,but its powerfull anuff to have fun with

[BenDover]

Originally posted by davidpt40
Guess you never heard that it was a P51 pilot who made a 7-g kill on a Fw190, which turns out to be the highest-g kill of WW2.

look up the word, fluke