Question !

[hyena426]

303 bullet was a fully jacketed pointed bullet weighing 174 grains. However, things were not as they may have appeared. Beneath the full metal jacket lurked a radical bullet design, for anyone who sectioned one of the new bullets found an aluminium tip under the point, which extended fully one third of the bullet’s length. Beneath this aluminium tip was the conventional lead core. the bullet’s centre of gravity was now further to the rear, which caused it to be unstable at long ranges<~and i know that for a fact while tring to hit targets with it at the firing range

What type of Krag do you have?

ill have to dig it out,,but its the military model trash box style,,4 rounds<~~one of the smoothest bolt actions ever made still to this day, military krag actions are very nice:)

The Krag was loaded originally with 220 grain rn bullets. These are sure killers at close range on every deer in the North Americas--even elk and moose--but they lose velocity and energy rapidly so are poor long range loads.

now i was hitting a 55 gallon drum at the gun range at 550 yards with stock sites,,and i didnt use the ladder ethere,,,and i could hit that barrel every shot,,even know it was allmost impossible too see,,lucky it has a cowbell on it so you can here it ding when you hit it,,,,,,now if that aint long range shooting,,i dont know what is,,because past that,,you will rarely get a kill even with a scope,,,people dont realize that 500 yards is a far shot<~~5 football fields long,,,,lol go to the gun range and fire at a true 500 yard target with a military style 30/40 krag,,and you will be very suprized with its predicablity and accurcy

now for in close i use my spingfield 45.70 goverment 1874 model trapdoor<~~now thats the close range hunter from hell,,shooting 450grain bullets threw it,,<~i even loaded it with 520grain bullets before,only good to about 200 yards,,lol,,but it would kick like hell!!,,,the bad thing with small bullets,,223,,and 300h,,is they fly right threw there targets,,none of the energry is put into the animal,,,me and a freind went out and shot up some ice blocks,,he has a 300 h mag,,,he shot at the bag of ice,,and a chunk blew off,,,i shot at mine,,and the bag just slumped a little,,,,when we walked up to the bags,,,we noticed his bullet flew right threw,,,the bag of ice i shot,,was nothing but tiny little snow flakes<~there wasnt one peice of ice bigger than a fingernail in there left,,,it used all of its energy into the bag of ice,,and up too 400 yards that 40.70 is good<~~and thats all you realy need,,most shots are from 100 yards out too 500 max

I would load "dear Rounds" for the 223 for long range Hunting

and i dont know about the laws were your at,,they wont let any 22 cal gun of any kind,,{223,,270},in washington state be used for deer hunting,,illegal last time i checked,,lol but could be diffrent in othere states

[Sakai]

Originally posted by devious
Well, all rounds tend to tumble as the center of gravity is to the back of their middle - even in flight on extreme range. They rotate, swinging the COG around.

Wound profiles are another matter though. By going supersonic, the bullet produces a temporary cavity inside the body it enters (it
`s composed mainly of water, note the ripples and splash a stone creates when you throw it in water).

If the round goes fast enough to exceed it`s structural limit


Otherwise, it just leaves a canal varying in diameter between the calibre and the length of the bullet.

That`s why the M4 is a horrible weapon IMO


Note this holds for FMJ ammo - Hollow Points will mushroom passing through the body, creating a bigger tunnel and transferring more energ to the target.

Must dig up some good links for you there....

Yes, hollowpoints and softpoints do mushroom, transferring their energy more rapidly into the target.  This shock value is devastating on targets, why high powered rifles are so deadly with softpoints.  O'Connor told a story of watching his friend kill a Grizzly with a .220 Swift.  He said that the first shot hit a rib and the light, fast hunting bullet exploded, causing a saucer-shaped wound on the animals ribcage.  The second shot slipped between two ribs and he said the bear died "instantly."  

I have seen more than one shot though that went straight through the animal--and I do mean straight damned through--always with expanding bullets as I don't shoot people nor do I shoot animals with FMJs.  The BTSP 150 grain .277s from Sierra I shot through my .270 Winchester were devastating and always passed through in a straight line.  The first deer I shot with that rifle was a smallish specimen, a Coues Species Whitetail on the Border of Arizona and Mexico.  The little buck collapsed like a bag of lead, the bullet having passed just under his spine.  I hit him too far back, taking out his liver but the velocity and force of the shot pulled guts out the exit wound--which was directly opposite the entrance wound at a slight angle due to the fact I shot him uphill.  

Thus, although wounds are different depending on the weapon, the target hit, the projectile style, angle of strike, range, etc., it is falsifiable that "all bullets tumble" when they strike a target.  Killed a lot of game that had straight holes drilled through them.  

Tumbling is reduced by better bullet design, boattailed rounds reduce drag and increase efficiency over long ranges, but they also tend to be more stable.  As you note, bullets that are rear heavy--most ammo, and pointed ammo has this problem in spades which is why spire-pointed FMJ flat based ammo (like the Springfield load I discussed) has it worse--tend to be more erratic.  The sharply pointed "spire point" designs were among the oldest "modern" ammo designs (roundnose being the oldest).  After WWI, the Army developed an extremely stable, high powered 172 boattail load for the Springfield that was never used in WWII as it was too much for the Garand actions.  

Could not agree more re M4, why remove the great advantage a weapon has (velocity)?

Rgr on the fragmenting military type.  They are not supposed to do that, but some designs do.  

Sakai

[Sakai]

Originally posted by hyena426
303 bullet was a fully jacketed pointed bullet weighing 174 grains. However, things were not as they may have appeared. Beneath the full metal jacket lurked a radical bullet design, for anyone who sectioned one of the new bullets found an aluminium tip under the point, which extended fully one third of the bullet’s length.

Interesting!

and i dont know about the laws were your at,,they wont let any 22 cal gun of any kind,,{223,,270},in washington state be used for deer hunting,,illegal last time i checked,,lol but could be diffrent in othere states

That was Brady, I don't know where he hunted but yes, some states do allow the use of .22 calibre centerfire rifles for deer hunting.  There is a group of guys around here who brag about shooting all their deer with .222s and .223s.  One such fellow I talked with said he "only lost three wounded animals last year."  Can you imagine leaving three deer with horrific neck wounds in one year?  I lost one deer onetime that way when I was a kid, shot him across a ravine with a 30-06, neck shot, looked dead so we walked down and up and when we got there it had gotten up and left.  I was devastated.  

Sakai

[brady]

I honestly Dont know what the laws are I never baught a Dear tag, we only hunted on our property, and Places we had permishion, I never Actualy Shot a Dear though I caried ammo in case I encountered one, and I spent countless hours on a few ocashions looking for them, but I must admit It was very boring. I had more fun shoting Squires out of Orchards whear their were tons of targets, also we had Vyniards that We Controled the Birds in by Shoting, I Took a Month off of school each year to do nothing but Hunt Birds that would of other wise killed our crops, so for me the tiedieum of Hunting Dear was well just that.

 I did watch my Dad shoot two dear that were runing with The 223 I mention above, at 350 yards, 5 shots 3 hits, first hit a standing dear in the neck, then the group started to run he droped a second dear as it jumped a fence, one hit in the head, the fist dear got up and he hit it in the head, he was a makrsman in the Army and did a lot of target shoting as we grew up, my buddie and I who watched thsi were prety awstruck, I was like 10 at the time, we knew how far it was because of the  field he was shoting across had been layed out for pinot Noiour grapes and was spaced.

           Obviously this was poaching since their were no tags invoulved, it was the fall and dear seasion anyway, I must say this was the only time that we lived their that this hapened, It did happen though elsewhear in the country whear I grew up by other people, not to often, I suspect it still goes on on private land to a certain extent.

[hyena426]

heck most people dont even know that some of the longest sniper shots were made in the civil war{not all of cource},,,they would get kills from 800yards up over a 1000<~~with a black powder rifles with a 540grain bullet!! over a ounce of lead they would shoot,,you know why so accurate?,,because the black powder rifle still to this day are the most accurate firearm in the world,,because they dont have a shell chasing to mess with there path out of the barrel,,centerfire blackpowders burn so good even and strait,,that they made them illegal to hunt with in washington state<~~stupid hunting rules are crap somtimes,,because you only get one shot anyways,,lol,,but if you wanna talk distance and accruacy you cant beat a centerfire blackpowder rifle,,,,i my self own a 58cal springfield and it has know problem scraching targets at over 600yards with anuff lead and power to put anything down

I lost one deer onetime that way when I was a kid, shot him across a ravine with a 30-06, neck shot, looked dead so we walked down and up and when we got there it had gotten up and left. I was devastated.

<~~my cousin had about the same thing,,but worse!!,,,he shot a deer that was runing from him with his 44mag rifle,,in barley grazed his belly,,so all his guts fell out,,but it kepts runing,,it jumped fence and got tangled up on it,,,well a farmer comes runing up,,and says,,that deer is on my land now!!,,and called the cops,,and even know my cousin shot it on legal land,,sence it made it over the fence,,the farmer got to keep it,,it was bullcrap,,made him so mad,,lol

ya and some people dont know that about the 303 its a little back heavy,,its a great round up too about 400 yards,,then it starts too fly funny,,,i know at the gun range,,it would hit 2 inch high at 100 yards,,and a inch low at 300<~~somtimes you got to cutt open a bullet to see why it flys so funny,,lol

[hyena426]

I honestly Dont know what the laws are I never baught a Dear tag, we only hunted on our property, and Places we had permishion,

ya,,thats illegal even on your own land,,,only way your aloud to kill a deer on your own land,,is if your a farmer and there trashing your fruit trees or somthing like that,,,othere than that,,i think even on your own land,,or people who give ya premission to hunt on there land,,you will still have to have a deer tag,,get caught traveling with out one,,you will loose your gun rights and everything for atleast a few years

[Shiva]

Originally posted by Sakai
The tumbling is a specific effect called "keyholing".  What is being described in those journals is normal projectile behavior in tissue.  The mediums being what they are, obviously you have odd wound channels, bones or differences in tissue density can deflect the bullet to cause a new path (yes, no bullet follows a pure path through tissue but that is not keyholing).  I suspect that pistol bullets--due to their poor SD and flat bases--jive off erratically, I know .22s do--but keyholing is not the dipping off course or fragmenting of the jacket, but rather the violent corkscrewing sideways action accompanied by immediate loss of energy inside the target and horrific destruction.  Again, it is a specific effect.  Not all wounds are "keyhole" wounds.

For the first report I listed, analysis was done using both expanding and non-expanding rounds. Initial investigation was performed using anesthetized swine as targets, shooting into the ham at a 90° angle. Secondary analysis was performed with ballistic gelatin targets

Detailed examination of the permanent wound cavity (as opposed to the temporary wound cavity, which disappears within milliseconds) show that a bullet that does not fragment, deform, or hit an internal structure causing it to deflect and/or spall fragments will come to rest, if they do not achieve sufficient penetration to ext the target, in a tail-first attitude, having performed a 180° flip. Therefore, assuming that no deformation, fragmentation, or secondary spalling occurs, a long narrow bullet will leave a larger permanent wound cavity than a short fat bullet of the same mass, although in overall lethality this contribution is relatively minor. What attitude a deforming projectile winds up at depends on the precise geometry of the deformation, and is extremely difficult to categorize.

Typically, however, even with FMJ bullets (depending bullet design and on range -- as range increases, fragmentation decreases), a projectile which fragments will do so when its yaw approaches 90° to the penetration line, breaking into two major pieces and up to several dozen small fragments. However, JHP projectiles, because of the deformation resulting from the projectile design, and the associated reduction in projectile length, produce a larger permanent wound cavity, but because of the increased rate of energy dump into the target do not produce fragments with the high velocity of FMJ fragments, nor as many fragments -- fragments of FMJ rifle projectiles have been found up to 30cm away from the point where the projectile fragmented.

The shape of the projectile contributes to tumbling as well; modern military bullets all possess a pointed-ogival "spitzer" tip. While this produces superior exterior ballistics, it also contributes to the rapidity with which the projectile begins to tumble after impact. The first FMJ projectiles (1885-1910) had a higher aspect ratio, and a rounded tip; these bullets could travel more than 50cm before significant yaw began -- which made them very effective for big-game hunting (the yaw, and subsequent fragmentation, occuring deep inside the animal's body where the vital organs were), but against soldiers, even a through-and-through chest wound, if it did not strike a bone or any major blood vessel, would not keep the victim out of action for more than a few weeks; this effect was remarked on by surgeons of the period.

Some high velocity wounds have been ascribed to keyholing when in fact they were simply pressure ruptures of the tissue, a ghastly effect of the kinetics involved, like sides split out loosing bowls from M-16 fire.  Shooting smallish targets with high velocity softpoints, varmint hunting, often provides grisly explosive effects due to the rapid dispersal of the energy through the target and the frangible qualities of the projectile.  These are not in any way, shape, or form, keyhole wounds.  Thus to say all are keyhole is errant.

Avulsions of the type you describe for small game are a result of the expansion of the temporary wound cavity exceeding the elastic strength of tissue, and are an artifact of high-power bullets fired into very small targets; the effects are not comparable to those in man-sized or larger targets. Wounds of the type you describe for the M-16 are an artifact of the fragmentation of the M193 5.56x45mm projectile, whose wounding mechanism was not understood during Vietnam, prior to the discovery of the contribution that bullet fragmentation made to tissue damage.

You also see "keyhole wounds" on stable bullets when animals/people are shot through the brush so that the deflected round smashes sideways into the flesh.

First, there are no stable bullets; all bullets tumble after impact. However, bullet design severely affects how a bullet will tumble. For example, the Soviet 7.62x39mm round for the AK-47 is a boat-tail round jacketed with copper-plated steel, with a steel core and a thin layer of lead between them; upon penetration, it begins to yaw after about 26cm, and completes its flip after about 50-55cm of penetration. The Yugoslav 7.62x39mm round for the AK-47 is a flat base round with a copper jacket and lead core; this round begins to yaw after about 17cm of penetration, and completes its flip after about 40-45cm of penetration. The M193 round for the M16A1 travels point-forward in tissue for about 12cm after which it yaws to 90°, flattens, and breaks at the cannelure. The bullet point flattens but remains in one piece, retaining about 60 per cent of the original bullet weight. The rear portion breaks into many fragments that penetrate up to 7cm radially from the bullet path. The temporary cavity stretch, its effect increased by perforation and weakening of the tissue by fragments, then causes a much enlarged permanent cavity by detaching tissue pieces. The effect of striking brush to cause tumble before reaching the target (or, in a specific case, shootin SS109 or M865 bullets from the older M16A1 rifle barrel, which does not impart sufficient spin to stabilize the bullet) almost invariably cause the bullet to fragment upon impact, which combines with the temporary cavity stretch to cause stellate entry wounds with increased tissue loss.

For online perusal, I direct you to Military Rifle Bullet Wound Patterns and What's Wrong With the Wound Ballistics Literature, and Why, both by Dr. Martin Fackler; the latter provides a more detailed point-by-point presentation, while the former provides specific examples and illustrations of the fragmentation of bullets.

[Sakai]

Originally posted by Shiva
Detailed examination of the permanent wound cavity (as opposed to the temporary wound cavity, which disappears within milliseconds) show that a bullet that does not fragment, deform, or hit an internal structure causing it to deflect and/or spall fragments will come to rest, if they do not achieve sufficient penetration to ext the target, in a tail-first attitude, having performed a 180° flip. Therefore, assuming that no deformation, fragmentation, or secondary spalling occurs, a long narrow bullet will leave a larger permanent wound cavity than a short fat bullet of the same mass, although in overall lethality this contribution is relatively minor. What attitude a deforming projectile winds up at depends on the precise geometry of the deformation, and is extremely difficult to categorize.

Well, I am hopelessly outclassed here, our library only does toxicology.

First, you must have seen by now that we are discussing two issues:  one is hunting and the second is the widely reported effect of keyholing, or tumbling.  The effect of tumbling reached mythic proportions in hunting (and was blankly applied ot hunting with a .303, a comment that "all it's bullets are poorly designed" which is falsifiable), it is the myth I wish to dispel.

As noted by myself, military ammo has often been associated with keyholing but when you say "all bullets" I must take exception, I think that's falsifiable.  The Professional hunters of Africa routinely examine their solids and softpoints shot into the heaviest game, you never hear of the "flipped bullet" phenomenon there, I mean, never.   We aren't talking doped pigs, we're talking thousands of Buffalo, Elephant, etc. shot under varying conditions.  Some styles worked better than others, but flipping solids (these being heavier, slower round nosed solids of proper construction) aren't described (while poorly made deformed projectiles or errant trajectories in game of bullets hitting bone sometimes are).  

"Categorization" of "deformed" (which we call expanding) bullets essentially is done in the same manner:  examination.  The Rounds are not extracted flipped with the mushroomed point facing toward the entry wound, not that I have ever seen.  I think that lab tests are spot-on re the military loads and corroborate the anecdotal soldiers and more trained surgeosn reports from wars, but they don't seem to mirror any of my experience on game, nor that of any other hunter I can name excepting those using military style spitzers, which as I noted in the first get go, are precisely the unstable stype.  Or less stable, if you prefer.  But, that BTs are more stable, as noted previously, than flat-based spitzers is not questioned by anyone that I am aware of.  

However, JHP projectiles, because of the deformation resulting from the projectile design, and the associated reduction in projectile length, produce a larger permanent wound cavity, but because of the increased rate of energy dump into the target do not produce fragments with the high velocity of FMJ fragments, nor as many fragments -- fragments of FMJ rifle projectiles have been found up to 30cm away from the point where the projectile fragmented.

Yes, as noted previously by myself.

The shape of the projectile contributes to tumbling as well; modern military bullets all possess a pointed-ogival "spitzer" tip.

Yes, see above post to Hyena or someone.

While this produces superior exterior ballistics, it also contributes to the rapidity with which the projectile begins to tumble after impact. The first FMJ projectiles (1885-1910) had a higher aspect ratio, and a rounded tip; these bullets could travel more than 50cm before significant yaw began -- which made them very effective for big-game hunting (the yaw, and subsequent fragmentation, occuring deep inside the animal's body where the vital organs were), but against soldiers, even a through-and-through chest wound, if it did not strike a bone or any major blood vessel, would not keep the victim out of action for more than a few weeks; this effect was remarked on by surgeons of the period.

Precisely, as noted.  Note also that the "through and through" phenomenon you note argues against the "every bullet tumbles" point you have taken.  That is, evidence suggests that while many military styles have or do in fact do this, not all have or did under the conditions of use, as you noted.  It is diffult to believe that a "keyhole" chest wound would be up and about in no time.  Or is that wrong?  Surely a chest is more than 6 inches deep, but is it ten or 11?  You note the Soviet bullets fired from AKs flip after, what 55-56 cm, that's about what?  24 inches or less?  Spitzer solid bullets traveling through 2 feet of tissue would be more likeley to turn at some point, I would agree.  But this would allow for through on throughs on chests, they not being 2 feet thick.  

Wounds of the type you describe for the M-16 are an artifact of the fragmentation of the M193 5.56x45mm projectile, whose wounding mechanism was not understood during Vietnam, prior to the discovery of the contribution that bullet fragmentation made to tissue damage.

Yes, I had heard this as well, that the original design for the M-16 did come apart, and as noted, this was attributed by some to keyholing not fragmentation.  I would assume that uncontrolled fragmenting causes any number of types of wounds, the round being inherently less stable if it somes apart in  a less controlled manner than expanding softpoints used for hunting that are deisgned to mushroom.  

First, there are no stable bullets; all bullets tumble after impact.

Not in my experience and I have never read of same in large game with properly constructed solids and softpoints (note that I have conceded that I have never shot humans with military loads, although I have read many horror stories of poorly constructed bullets shot into dangerous game:  note that it would be extremely difficult, impossible really, to "Brain" elephants if the dipping and tumbling you described occured in the shots on those animals see: http://tinyurl.com/47qs for an example of some retrieved rounds from heavy game, some solids and some lead alloy).  In my experience, some have and some have not.  Now, I am not a vetrinary pathologist and don't necropsy everything I shoot, but I do investigate most wounds (I eat all my game) and I have seen several that were "through and throughs" and not being in a position to have seen the round exit, but seeing the angle of the hit and it's exit being linear, and the fact that I shot a mushromming round, I can only conclude that the round exited mushroom first, thus the greater diameter exit wound.  In fact, it is difficult to see how recovered, "perfect" mushrooms could occur in a tumbling bullet?  In fact, they could not, the mushroom would not remain intact.

However, bullet design severely affects how a bullet will tumble.

Yes, as noted.

For example, the Soviet 7.62x39mm round for the AK-47 is a boat-tail round jacketed with copper-plated steel, with a steel core and a thin layer of lead between them; upon penetration, it begins to yaw after about 26cm, and completes its flip after about 50-55cm of penetration. The Yugoslav 7.62x39mm round for the AK-47 is a flat base round with a copper jacket and lead core; this round begins to yaw after about 17cm of penetration, and completes its flip after about 40-45cm of penetration. The M193 round for the M16A1 travels point-forward in tissue for about 12cm after which it yaws to 90°, flattens, and breaks at the cannelure. The bullet point flattens but remains in one piece, retaining about 60 per cent of the original bullet weight. The rear portion breaks into many fragments that penetrate up to 7cm radially from the bullet path. The temporary cavity stretch, its effect increased by perforation and weakening of the tissue by fragments, then causes a much enlarged permanent cavity by detaching tissue pieces.

That is remarkble, every M16 bullet does this?  I had no idea, no wonder they are so deadly.  Does this still occur "at range"? Say 300-500 meters? Also note the difference in stability of the Soviet BT vs the flat based round, precisely as I had suggested earlier:  it has always been the flat based bullets, the spire points especially, that were associated with the worst keyholing.  Note too that I think both of our reading and experience has identified velocity as a key determinant.  Also, keyholing described by yourself is not "on impact", but rather is due to the amount of travel inside the cavity.  Note also that what we arte discussing is not the tale of "tumbling bullets" that one hears at the range.  

The effect of striking brush to cause tumble before reaching the target (or, in a specific case, shootin SS109 or M865 bullets from the older M16A1 rifle barrel, which does not impart sufficient spin to stabilize the bullet) almost invariably cause the bullet to fragment upon impact, which combines with the temporary cavity stretch to cause stellate entry wounds with increased tissue loss.

Yes, fragment but not necessarily come entirely to pieces.  Many animals have been felled by partially deflected or deformed hunting rounds in brush.  It is a poor practice that carries a high risk of lost--or worse, badly wounded and lost-game, called "brush busting" but some guys still play that game.

What great stuff, thanks!

Sakai

[Shiva]

Originally posted by Sakai
"Categorization" of "deformed" (which we call expanding) bullets essentially is done in the same manner:  examination.  The Rounds are not extracted flipped with the mushroomed point facing toward the entry wound, not that I have ever seen.  

Deformation covers a wide range of alteration of bullet shape, not just the mushrooming designs. Round-nosed bullets require more travel distance to begin yawing than spitzer-nosed bullets; a bullet that deforms quickly on impact into a round-nose shape will have its orientation -- assuming that it does not penetrate completely and exit -- determined more by the symmetry of its deformation than by the bullet tumble.

Precisely, as noted.  Note also that the "through and through" phenomenon you note argues against the "every bullet tumbles" point you have taken.  That is, evidence suggests that while many military styles have or do in fact do this, not all have or did under the conditions of use, as you noted.  It is diffult to believe that a "keyhole" chest wound would be up and about in no time.  Or is that wrong?  

Perhaps it is more accurate to say that all bullets will tumble in the target if given a long enough path through the target. Even the early round-nose FMJ bullets tumbled -- but for a soldier shot with one of these bullets, a round hitting his chest would exit before it had begun to yaw significantly. As a result, for chest wounds where the bullet didn't hit a bone or major blood vessel, the actual tissue trauma was quite limited. Basically, if the bullet hit the heart, a bone, your spine, or a major blood vessel, you were SOL; if not, you would recover quickly.

Surely a chest is more than 6 inches deep, but is it ten or 11?  You note the Soviet bullets fired from AKs flip after, what 55-56 cm, that's about what?  24 inches or less?  Spitzer solid bullets traveling through 2 feet of tissue would be more likeley to turn at some point, I would agree.  But this would allow for through on throughs on chests, they not being 2 feet thick.

This depends greatly on the trajectory of the bullet relative to the body. Surely you don't expect soldiers to remain standing facing the enemy to receive fire (a lá wars of the Civil War and earlier)? The angle of the body in the prone or crouched position increases the potential length of the bullet track before leaving the body.

I would assume that uncontrolled fragmenting causes any number of types of wounds, the round being inherently less stable if it somes apart in  a less controlled manner than expanding softpoints used for hunting that are deisgned to mushroom.

Bullets that fragment quickly, like the M193, create much larger permanent wound cavities because fragments that disperse into the walls of the temporary wound cavity create lacerations that allows the expansion stress from the temporary wound cavity to tear tissue apart, rather than it retaining its integrity.

Not in my experience and I have never read of same in large game with properly constructed solids and softpoints (note that I have conceded that I have never shot humans with military loads, although I have read many horror stories of poorly constructed bullets shot into dangerous game:  note that it would be extremely difficult, impossible really, to "Brain" elephants if the dipping and tumbling you described occured in the shots on those animals see: http://tinyurl.com/47qs for an example of some retrieved rounds from heavy game, some solids and some lead alloy).

Read the description of the track of the rounds fired at the buffalo: "The first had broken ribs, traversed the whole lung and heart area hitting the opposite side lower shoulder bones and stopped under the hide; The second broke bone passing through the first shoulder through the lungs and was lodged in the off shoulder ball socket." The tumble of a bullet in tissue is predicated on it encountering nothing but tissue -- once it hits bone, its trajectory will be deflected, and the ballistics of its motion become chaotic due to the vagaries of energy transfer to the bone. Additionally, bone fragments spalled by the collision function in a manner similar to bullet fragments, increasing the size of the permanent wound cavity even though the bullet may remain intact. The two bullets pictured and described as recovered from elephants provide no data, as no description of the bullet wounds is given.

Shots into the braincase of a target are a special case; only in a fully-enclosed volume like the braincase does the grossly overhyped 'hydrostatic shock' actually work the way that gun-lethality myths would have you believe. Additionally, since the bullet is penetrating the skull, the normal terminal ballistics of the projectile will not apply.

Now, I am not a vetrinary pathologist and don't necropsy everything I shoot, but I do investigate most wounds (I eat all my game) and I have seen several that were "through and throughs" and not being in a position to have seen the round exit, but seeing the angle of the hit and it's exit being linear, and the fact that I shot a mushromming round, I can only conclude that the round exited mushroom first, thus the greater diameter exit wound.  In fact, it is difficult to see how recovered, "perfect" mushrooms could occur in a tumbling bullet?  In fact, they could not, the mushroom would not remain intact.

Bullets that are designed to mushroom will dump energy faster than FMJ bullets. Because of this, by the time they reach penetration distances where  the yaw angle has increased to the point at which a FMJ round would fragment, they have lost enough energy that the stress on the bullet is insufficient to cause fragmentation. Assuming that the bullet doesn't hit a bone solidly enough to deform the bullet further, it would not normally fragment further. Remember that the bullet tumble is around its own center of mass -- deviation from a straight line of travel typically only occurs after extended penetration -- beyond the point at which the round exits the body on a side-on shot, for example.

FMJ rounds have a higher maximum wounding potential; however, the actual amount of trauma inflicted can vary significantly from shot to shot unless the bullet is specifically designed to minimize distortion and fragmentation. JHP rounds designed to mushroom on impact cannot cause as much damage as a fragmenting JHP round, but they provide a much more consistent amount of trauma; this is a much more desirable characteristic in a hunting round than an indeterminate potential to do significantly more or less damage.

That is remarkble, every M16 bullet does this?  I had no idea, no wonder they are so deadly.  Does this still occur "at range"? Say 300-500 meters?

With decreasing bullet energy from increasing range, the bullet is less likely to fragment. The M193 round was particularly prone to fragmentation, and it was the appearance of a wound after the M193 round fragmented that supported the rumor that the M-16's bullet would tumble in flight (on top of any actual tumble from being fired through undergrowth).

Also, keyholing described by yourself is not "on impact", but rather is due to the amount of travel inside the cavity.  Note also that what we arte discussing is not the tale of "tumbling bullets" that one hears at the range.

Bullets tumbling in flight on their own is something that is rarely seen, unless there is a big enough mismatch between the bullet, the barrel rifling, and the muzzle velocity -- as in the example I cited of firing the SS109 bullet through the older M16A1 barrels. The loss in accuracy from imparting insufficient spin to stabilize the bullet more than outweighs any additional lethality from having the bullet impact at an attitude to cause it to fragment immediately.

Many animals have been felled by partially deflected or deformed hunting rounds in brush.  It is a poor practice that carries a high risk of lost--or worse, badly wounded and lost-game, called "brush busting" but some guys still play that game.

That type of injury is more commonly seen in gunshot wounds from combat, because a soldier often doesn't have the luxury of waiting to get the ideal shot against an enemy. Doing it while hunting shows that the hunter isn't lazy enough to do it right the first time -- if I shoot game, I want it to go down ASAP; I don't want to have to chase it across Hell's half acre to put it down.