Author Topic: HTC: What I learn't from AH and WW2OL in the last month (Read 7404 times)

AKDejaVu · « **Reply #165 on:** January 12, 2003, 08:05:31 PM »

HC.. you are no longer here defending WW2OL, you are here defending your own blind ignorance.

Carry on.

AKDejaVu

hardcase · « **Reply #166 on:** January 12, 2003, 08:07:14 PM »

That can be altered. BTW..showing flaws in arguments is not defending.

HC

hardcase · « **Reply #167 on:** January 12, 2003, 08:11:00 PM »

Another attempt at trying to somehow give me permission to be here. LOL

HC

Vulcan · « **Reply #168 on:** January 12, 2003, 08:26:03 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by hardcase
Weren't we discussing a "FM is diddlyed" opinion based on an inability to out turn a 109 in a hurri? Dude, that aint a FM problem, that is a pilot problem.

Quote

Originally posted by Hatch
Dont worry, Doc and I pester them regularly about finishing the FM, the missing damage components, and the object biasing on a regular basis... I dont like waiting for it either, but hopefully not too much longer...

Kieran · « **Reply #169 on:** January 12, 2003, 08:33:13 PM »

For the record... wouldn't E retention be considered part of the f/m? And if so, wouldn't it be fair to say it is... flawed? Would it also be fair to say this has been known since... release? Aren't we heading into the end of the second year? When do you suppose it will get addressed? Soon, LOL?

I think most of the guys arguing with you have played the game, and more than once, and recently. I think that is more than enough data to formulate opinions. Agree or don't, but that is the truth of it.

You might also consider you don't really enjoy defending WWIIOL so much as rattling the cage here. Why would you spend so much time at your home-away-from-home defending your game? Why would you care what people post on a competitive board? I mean, really... are you Google searching for all game forums so you can patrol them for possible anti-CRS statements?

hardcase · « **Reply #170 on:** January 12, 2003, 08:37:21 PM »

I totally agree there are bugs in the FM. The ground model is almost non existant. Not being able to out turn a 109 is not one of them. You do know that the FM of WB and probably AH, since HT did both, has fudges to handle the Drag on them. WW2OL has not done that. Bob Shaw loves the spit model. He loved it in June of 2000. He said if flew more accurately than anything he has flown. No one CRS has called can find a flaw in the FM. Should they tweak it cause ppl, who have never flown a combat equiped AC say so? I for one don't know. I have never flown anything other than a 152 and some comp flight sims. I still think part of this is from the fact that we fly our ac to the extrene edge in furballs. RL pilots did not have this luxury. Our experience is based on wb ah, ww2ol,FO, etc. This still boils down to flyers going in, doing only flying, with low FPS, wanting it to fly like the only sim they have ever played.

HC

hardcase · « **Reply #171 on:** January 12, 2003, 08:45:00 PM »

Not at all Kieran. Rattling cages in silly. The FM does not fly like wb or ah. The method used to produce it is different than HT's. Is it wrong. Will they find some bug someday. Could well be. A lot of areonautical engineers have looked at the code and could not find an error. I don't have enough experience to say either way. I could spout off that it doesnt fly like AH or WB and therefore must be in error, but is that really good science?

HC

Kieran · « **Reply #172 on:** January 12, 2003, 08:48:20 PM »

In reality, I don't have a problem with the flight models in WWIIOL. They are more-or-less correct relative to one another, though the 109 may be more than generous (operative word "may").

But here you go... Moose didn't direct any comment to you personally when he posted his opinion, whereas you most certainly did make a personal statement about him. It's what you typically do.

Vulcan · « **Reply #173 on:** January 12, 2003, 08:58:22 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by hardcase
Could well be. A lot of areonautical engineers have looked at the code and could not find an error.

"Dont worry, Doc and I pester them regularly about finishing the FM"

For there to be an error something needs to be there. Or have you secretly been writing code and patching it in without telling CRS?

hardcase · « **Reply #174 on:** January 12, 2003, 09:20:35 PM »

Saying he flies like toejam was wrong. He flys but has less experience than some and his opinion of the FM should have been based on something other than he was unable to do something that others do,than to conclude that the fault must lie in the sim. I expected more bleed when I first started flying, based on flying WB. My problems are the ground model, or lack of one and the lack of graphical damage. The E retention is a long standing complaint, the engineers were looking at the code to find errors because crs early on could not find a drag/thrust error. There were hoping the engineers could. They didn't

My guess is that the slats on the 109 give it a better edge than the other ac.

HC

Moose1 · « **Reply #175 on:** January 12, 2003, 09:28:31 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by hardcase
Someone posts the FM is porked cause the can't out turn a 109 in a spit. When someone says its diddlyed, he'd better be a danm sight better at flying. I can out turn 109s in a hurri all day long. How does this involve an opinion?

"The flight model is, for lack of a better word, diddlyed. So diddlyed it's not even funny. I have had 109s turn inside my Hurricane I and Hawk 75 at 100 knots--try that in AH. E retention is ridiculous. Hurricanes, Hawks, and 110s are nothing but bait for the Spits, D.520s."

Alienating moose? I doubt moose has any intention of playing.

E retention is still an ongoing debate, it is being done in furballs at max rpm while the engine goes to overheating. Pilots in RL didnt do that for very long.

HC

Actually, I just logged off from playing WWIIOL. I multicrewed a Matilda II, played a little infantry, and in general had a pretty good time. I just happen to think, based upon things I've read and first-hand experience, that the flight model has some pretty big problems.

And as for my contentions about the 109 turning inside a Hurri and a Hawk...identical situations. 110-knot tail-chase turning fights, low altitude, both of us banked hard with the sticks back in our laps. Both times, the 109 made up 45 to 60 degrees in one 360-degree circle, with me pulling 4 to 5 G. And he wasn't closing, he was making the same sustained 110 knots that I was.

In AH, a Hurricane I can turn inside a Spit I. Both British planes, in a low-speed dogfight, can make sustained turns inside a 109E-4, or at least until their speed runs out. Every single time I've gotten a 109 in my rear hemisphere, regardless of speed or situation, no matter how hard I crank it or what evasives I try, he will gain angles on me. Period.

Now, do I suck at the WWIIOL flight model? Yeah. Do I suck that bad? Maybe. But look at it from my viewpoint--what I've seen in aerial combat in WWIIOL stands 10 years of sim experience and historical reading on its head.

So, OK, master of all WWIIOL knowledge. Other than battle damage, what would keep my toejamty little Hurricane from gaining angles on that 109E-4? Trim set wrong? Joystick set up wrong? Hurricane modeled wrong in AH? German planes coated in Belgian sheep fat to reduce drag? I'm running into Adolf Galland every damn time I fly? There's some "trick" to the flight model that I haven't figured out yet?

It is an opinion. I think the flight model has got some weirdness in it. I like a lot of things about the rest of the game. If you don't like that opinion...well, sorry. There's nothing I can do about that.

See you in game, if the Germans don't push us back into the Channel before then.

Moose1 · « **Reply #176 on:** January 12, 2003, 09:34:29 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by hardcase
Saying he flies like toejam was wrong. He flys but has less experience than some and his opinion of the FM should have been based on something other than he was unable to do something that others do,than to conclude that the fault must lie in the sim. I expected more bleed when I first started flying, based on flying WB. My problems are the ground model, or lack of one and the lack of graphical damage. The E retention is a long standing complaint, the engineers were looking at the code to find errors because crs early on could not find a drag/thrust error. There were hoping the engineers could. They didn't

My guess is that the slats on the 109 give it a better edge than the other ac.

HC

That's entirely possible. And, if the 109 had out-turned me through, say, 180 degrees, I'd figure that was it. But these were fights that went through 2 and 3 circles and he was still gaining.

I think you might've nailed it with the E retention. If the 109 can hold its speed better, it might out-rate a Spit or even a Hurricane. But I'm at a loss to see how it could sustain a max-performance turn for 1080 degrees. Again, that's from years of other sims, but it doesn't seem right. Heck, for all I know, that 12 fps may even be a factor, who knows.

I haven't had a chance to check out a lot of the other planes, as I don't have the rank to spawn a Spitfire, 109, D.520, etc. yet. I've flown the 110 once (and died horribly), and other than that it's been Hawk 75s and Hurricanes for me. I will add one thing though--after the icon and view system in AH, the icon and view system in WWIIOL is hard to get used to. It's more realistic, and I like the concept, but planes are basically impossible for me to spot against the ground, at 1024x768 on a 19" monitor. I can't keep sight in dogfights, mainly because I'm fighting the keymapper and trying to get my views set up AH-style.

I posted that "diddlyed" line after a pretty frustrating day of trying to fly and getting shot and blown up in various and sundry other ways as well. Next time I'll make myself wait 24 hours.

Vulcan · « **Reply #177 on:** January 12, 2003, 09:39:05 PM »

Damn there go my hopes of another 500 post thread

hardcase · « **Reply #178 on:** January 12, 2003, 09:39:37 PM »

Moose anyone who flies the Pigs(blacksheep here) deserves better than my toejam post. Email me at fstott@memphis.edu and maybe we can crank some more fps out.

HC

hardcase · « **Reply #179 on:** January 12, 2003, 09:45:00 PM »

He probably has some up trim in. Try hitting a few hits of up trim. Power to Max. With up trim you can indeed tighten your turning radius at all speeds. Not a lot but some. Now..a complaint I have and this needs fixing...The keymapper will allow you to input percentage flaps settings..25% 50% etc. even on AC that had only full on or full off. I don't like this and I don't do it. I turn flap free, but you can run across ppl who do this.

HC