to frenchy and others who think b17 guns better than real life...

[rod367th]

1943  march 4::::14 forts (b17's) From the 91st led by 22 year old Major Paul fishborne, were bombing Hamm Germany. After dropping bombs 50 FW190s,Me 109s and twin engine 110's harrassed the 13 remaining forts as one was lost to flak. No fighter escorts just b17's against all 50 planes. Only $ bombers Were shot down, and 13 enemy fighters were credited to the 91st.


 Now I remmeber rooks sending 6 formations to knight HQ 18 total planes 8 knights engaged ad shot them all down with one lost.


Eighth air force Feb. 26th 1943 64 b17's attack Wilheimshaven Ger. after bombing they were set upon by 50 to 75 assorted fighters/only 1 b17 was shot down.




June 29th for 6 days st8 eighth air force sent in and avg of 300plus bombers now with escorts 3/4 way to germany (P47's)
for a 6 day total 1800plus bombers during what was to be known as Blitz week The Eigth hit Oschersleben Germany. Out of 1800 Sorties for bombers only 88 were lost to flak and fighters.




 Could post 1000 daily reports like this showing that to kill formation bombers by axies planes was not so simple.



 Brigadier General Alfred Gerstenburg Stated " Flying into  a tight bomber formation  Was like holding a metal rod up in a viloent thunder storm you knew you were going to get hit" "I order my men to try to wound thier ships then destory as wounded birds fell back) sunday Aug 1st was our worst day inthe history of Luftwaffe in Ploesti Sending 63 fighter to intercept estimated 200 b24 liber's only 26 men returned home, This was the sadest moment in my life, Seeing this men die in a foriegn country Haunts me to this day"

[Vulcan]

Not only that but you'll find most LW Aces with high bomber kills were shot down several times (and survived to fly again).

[Hortlund]

Originally posted by rod367th
Only $ bombers Were shot down, and 13 enemy fighters were credited to the 91st.

[/b]
LOL, this from 8th AF who were notorious for overclaiming and overcrediting kills.

Some examples maybe? 43 Augsburg raid where 900 RAF and USAF escort fighters claimed 118 victories, while the bombers of 8th AF claimed 350 victories... (total LW sorties that day: 700)

15th Nov 43 to 15th April 44
RAF fighter claims: 878 destroyed, 102 probables, 347 damaged
8th AF (just the B-17s and B-24s mind you): 2 223 destroyed, 696 probables, 1 818 damaged
8th AF (escorts) 1 835 destroyed

Add up the US numbers you will find that the entire Luftwaffe on the western front fell pray to the mighty buff gunners of the 8th AF.

Eighth air force Feb. 26th 1943 64 b17's attack Wilheimshaven Ger. after bombing they were set upon by 50 to 75 assorted fighters/only 1 b17 was shot down.


June 29th for 6 days st8 eighth air force sent in and avg of 300plus bombers now with escorts 3/4 way to germany (P47's)
for a 6 day total 1800plus bombers during what was to be known as Blitz week The Eigth hit Oschersleben Germany. Out of 1800 Sorties for bombers only 88 were lost to flak and fighters.

Why dont you pull the numbers from 14th October 1943...

[Wotan]

LoL

Steve is right.

Bomber gunner claims are about as credible as 50 cals bouncing off the ground to kill tanks, 7g deflection shots, d800 kill shots and "entombing" panzer crews by strafing.

Hollywood BS.........

" My Staffel was in position about 1,000yd behind 'its' squadron of bombers.The Staffel leader ordered his aircraft into line abreast and, still in close formation, we advanced on the bombers. We were to advance like Frederick the Great's infantrymen, holding our fire until we could see 'the whites of the enemy's eyes'.''

 The tactics of the Sturmgruppe were governed by the performance of the wing-mounted 3cm cannon. Although the hexogen high-explosive ammunition fired by this weapon was devastatingly effective, the gun's relatively low muzzle velocity meant that its accuracy fell off rapidly with range . With only 55 rounds per gun, sufficient for about five seconds' firing, the Sturmböcke could not afford to waste ammunition in wild shooting from long range. The sky was alive with a withering hail of defensive fire from the bombers. As the unwieldy fighters slowly advanced on the bombers, the Sturmbock pilots could only grit their teeth until they were right up close against the bombers. The huge bulk of the radial engine and the heavy armour plate around the cockpit allowed the Sturm force to press on with a certain impunity, as Hagenath remembers

" like the armoured knights in the Middle Ages, we were well protected . A Staffel might lose one or two aircraft during the advance, but the rest continued relentlessly on ." [/b]

 Positioned now about 100yd behind the bombers  the Staffel leader barked out the order to open fire

' Pauke ! Pauke ! ..'.

The lw never attacked a whole bomber "force". They attacked sections. They didnt go after every raid either. The allied escort patrolled a given area along the bomber stream. The lw would attack the bombers where they were vulnerable.

To improve defenses bomber formations they combined three 18-plane groups. Instead of flying behind each other, the groups were positioned at high, medium and low level. The medium altitude group would fly slight ahead in the lead with the high squadron above and to the right while the low squadron beneath and on the left. The resulting 54 plane formation occupied a stretch of sky 600 yards long, a mile or so wide and half a mile deep. Other wings might fly identical formations to the target at six-mile intervals. These bomber streams in some cases stretched hundreds of miles.

A typical "Gefechtsverband’ (battle formation) consisting a "Sturmgruppe" of heavily armored and armed FW-190A8’s escorted by two "Begleitgruppen" of light fighters, often Bf 109G’s. The task of the light fighters was to engage the escort while the heavy fighters attacked the bombers. It was a great theory but difficult to employ. The massive German formations were unwieldy and took time to assemble. The US learned to send fighters ahead and break up the the "Gefechtsverband" while forming up.

It was allied fighters that allowed the bombers to get through. Not bomber gunners or even formations. When the lw engaged an unprotected bomber force they tore umm up.


LW Viermont Aces

[NOD2000]

ou guys, who belive bomber guns were no where near dangerous i sugest you do two things. 1. read the book called three engines half a wing and a prayer. 2. Talk to accaul german pilots about attacking american bombers they will tell you that they were deadly and people who didn't know what they were doing got killed real easily. YOU MUST REMEMBER THE PILOTS WHO ARE TELLING THE STORIES ARE THE ONES WHO SURVIVED.

I have conversed with 12 diffrent LW pilots 10 who live in this city and 2 who i have conversed with through mail. All of them considered B-17's to be extreamly deadly and they all said that they saw there friends go down in droves when attacking groups of 17's

[NOD2000]

Originally posted by Wotan
LoL


It was allied fighters that allowed the bombers to get through. Not bomber gunners or even formations. When the lw engaged an unprotected bomber force they tore umm up.


LW Viermont Aces

Wotan might I ask you to explain how Schnecherfurt (er how ever that was spelled)was hit  twice both times with out fighter escorts.

Originally posted by Wotan lw never attacked a whole bomber "force". They attacked sections. They didnt go after every raid either. The allied escort patrolled a given area along the bomber stream. The lw would attack the bombers where they were vulnerable.

Thats wrong LW boys perfered to attack the bottom group, but that does not mean that they only stayed down there. The top formation and the middle still saw there share of fighters attacking. If the top and middle formations were hit along with the bottom that means that the whole formation was hit.

[Wotan]

Nod you are wrong in just about everything you post.

I dont know what you think happened at Schweinfurt but maybe you ought to do some reading.


This should help you.

On  August 17, 1943 the Eighth Air Force launched its deepest raid against the ball bearing factories at Schweinfurt and aircraft production factories at Regensburg. The bombs destroyed some of the factory complexes, but the Luftwaffe destroyed or damaged much of the bomber force.

The raids cost the Eighth Air Force 60 out of 315 bombers.

On September 6, Eaker sent 262 bombers against Stuttgart. Of those, 45 fell to fighters and flak. Although the Americans had proved that, weather permitting, they could put some of their bombs on target, their losses in unescorted raids suggested that the Eighth Air Force might not find planes and crews to replace its losses and maintain efficiency and morale.

In October 1943. Reinforced with bombers redeployed from North Africa, the Eighth Air Force once again flew unescorted into the heart of industrial Germany. The results were again disastrous. Losses in the second week of "Black October" climbed until the second major strike against the ball bearing factories at Schweinfurt capped the slaughter. On October 14, "Black Thursday," a force of 291 B-17s flew into Germany and lost 60 aircraft. Of the survivors, another 138 bombers suffered damage or casualties.


Throughout the summer and fall of '43, Eighth Air Force bomber crews were experiencing a monthly attrition rate of 30 percent, while Luftwaffe pilots died at a rate less than half that of the Americans. Of the 35 aircrews that arrived in England with the 100th Bomb Group at the end of May 1943, only 14 percent of the men made it through the 25 missions required for rotation. The rest were dead, wounded, missing, psychological cases or prisoners of war. The message was clear: Bombers could not survive beyond the range of fighter escort.

Also post names of the 12 lw pilots and their direct response to your questions.

I can fill this thread with numerous accounts of the Sturmgruppen flying dead 6 right into the bomber formations and killing them.

[rod367th]

wotan these are the logs of raids 11 planes made england. ! crashed near field. That was number 4 shot down. In 1943 escorts couldn't fly all the way to germany. These all were based on no escorts at targets. Kills of planes were based on German Reports not 8th's

[NOD2000]

Wotan F* it i'm not going to argue with you. cuz u pointed out my point exactly all i said was both raids went there and back without escort. That target ws considered the most dangerous target in Germany. They went there and back without escort.

[Lazerus1]

The post is about buff guns, not their escort. Pretty simple.

[GPreddy]

Rod I want to point out a couple of things to you. In ah we dont have canopy glare condensation and shattering glass. In ah we dont have turbulence and the fear of real death to concern ourselves with. In ah our planes are much more stable then reality. In ah our gunnery is significantly higher then real pilots ever demonstrated. Im pretty sure bombers in the real world demonstrate a more rigid construction especially lancasters but the guns in ah when comparing fighters to buffs are stronger in buffs. And lastly when 'only 4' bombers were shot down we lost forty men and not just the four to eight that would be in them in ah and it may that very fact that makes the guns hit harder (one man controls every gun that may potentially hit). Many times the forces that went out in the morning failed to return in anything like the same strength so the few examples you present are probably not indicative of the overall.

[GScholz]

If the bombers had an acceptable success rate over Germany unescorted, why then the urgency placed on P-51 development at that time? It is widely known that the "self-protected bomber formation" concept failed in that the bombers simply could not defend themselves properly against cannon armed heavy-fighters like the 110 and 190. The 110 with its 20mm's, ample ammo supply and sable gun platform, simply outranged the manually operated Browning's on the B-17. The 190A8 with its heavy frontal armor would simply weather the B-17's defenses. Sure a few would be shot up, but most would get deadly close with those 151's and 108's. Most of those that were hit bad survived either by ditching or bailing (over friendly territory unlike the allies), and their rides were easily replaced. Actually, German fighter production went UP after the 8th's "Big Week" offensive against Germanys aircraft industry. Not until the bombers got fighter escort all the way to their target did the Luftwaffe suffer major casualties, and still the bomber formations would get badly mauled sometimes.

[Wotan]

Post your source for the "German reports" rod.

Nod theres nothing to argue about you are wrong. They went their unescorted and got lost 120 bombers in 2 the raids alone.

Thats 1200 men. Not to mention the casulties on the other bombers that were lucky to have survived getting hit.

You said you were in contact with 12 lw pilots post their names.

Did bomber gunners "shoot" down german aircraft? Sure they did. Not on the scale as claimed by the bomber gunners.

1943 was hardly a good year to ride on bomber into Germany.

[SFRT - Frenchy]

Originally posted by rod367th
to frenchy and others who think b17 guns better than real life...

What does it have to do with me:confused:

[rod367th]

Sorry frenchy couldn't remember if you or freeze



wotan Read A. Galland or Goring's book Gorings personal papers German Military museum