The Atomic bomb...why we used it..

[Ripsnort]

Originally posted by Naso
Rip, please, dont start the cut & paste again!!

Mercy!

I understand that some fear facts and data.

[Naso]

Originally posted by Ripsnort
I understand that some fear facts and data.

Expecially when it comes by http://www.itstrue.iswear.fox.gov



Anyway, I unconditionally surrender!

Chit! I am becoming french!

[Leslie]

Originally posted by Ripsnort
So the question remains, who started it?  The Japanese were in Manchuria as early as 1931...this eventually lead to an oil embargo on Japan.

Peace ensued through superior firepower, which always seems to be the case in war.

The United States pushed the issue, you can be sure of that.  The Japanese started it through a surprise attack on Pearl Harbor without warning and without a declaration of war.




Les

[Martlet]

Originally posted by Bingo
Both the US and Japanese committed terrible acts,,,,,,,read the book "FLYBOYS"

Bingo

I have.  It's an excellent book.

[Ripsnort]

Originally posted by Naso
Expecially when it comes by http://www.itstrue.iswear.fox.gov



Anyway, I unconditionally surrender!

Chit! I am becoming french!

FWIW, I've quoted probably less than 5 Fox news articles, and when I have, those articles are usually AP newswire or Reuters NS article linked through Fox.  But don't let that mask your pre-judgement of the authenticity of such news articles.  

Italian is another word for "French Pastry with sausage inside".

[SirLoin]

Not going to read whole thread...

It was the only option...It probably saved millions of lives(in an invasion scenario) and halted any expansion plans of Stalin in Europe(for a few years anyways).

[Rolex]

I can appreciate your lack of motivation to read the entire thread, but not reading is perpetuating the myth you just posted.

The executive summary is that 6 of the 7 five-star U.S. officers at the time have said that no invasion of the mainland would have taken place and the bombs were not necessary to end the war. Japan was already suing for peace and was ready to capitulate.

The Japanese government had made the decision to surrender and the U.S. was fully aware of that, but chose to kill another 300,000 people on a political agenda of displaying the bomb in an attempt to thwart Soviet control over eastern Europe and before the planned Soviet declaration of war against Japan.

It didn't work. The Soviets declared war anyway and maintained their control of eastern Europe. However, 300,000 civilians were murdered in the political experiment of power.

[Naso]

Originally posted by Ripsnort
Italian is another word for "French Pastry with sausage inside".

OUCH !

REFEREE !!!!

This one was under the belt !!!

You're evil !!

[GtoRA2]

Rolex
 People may take you post with less of a grain of salt if you posted links or references on your sources.

[SirLoin]

Originally posted by Rolex

The Japanese government had made the decision to surrender

Yeah..Right.

They go 4 years of hand to hand combat,Bonzai,Kamikaze(etc) attacks...Fighting to the last brave man(or killing one self with his own sword)...and you say they were preparing for surrender?

Bollocks..

Maybe if Yamamoto was promoted to Commander in Chief(and wasn't assasinated by P-38's).. and had the Emperor's ear(which he did not) and a who lot of other what ifs(like the removal of all high ranking army/navy commanders..)

[Rolex]

Roger that, GtoRA2. It's a compilation without academic treatment.

To be honest, I have no illusions that anyone here is going to read it (or anything for that matter) and say, "Maybe I should rethink this."

Don't get me wrong, there are some clever and knowledgeable people here about a variety of topics, but most are unreceptive to anything other than strident, superficial, teenage, verbal jousting using language designed to elicit an emotional response.

When you have people like Ripsnort, who's position is that he would wipe out the entire middle east with a massive nuclear strike if he had the power to do so, there is little chance of adult discussion and not much hope of opening his mind to other solutions.

People do not want their myths shattered. Myths are comfortable and reassuring. Without looking back, I think it was anonymous who made, what I think, is a good point about nationalism earlier in the thread. All cultures have their nationalistic myths and politicans exploit the weakness of the average voter to readily accept myths of superiority.

Here is a good example:

"If Japanese hadn't fought the white people, we would still be slaves of the white people. It would be colonization. We changed that."

At first reading, this must seem like a provocative stance from some radical, right-wing group in Japan. Amazingly, the speaker was Tokyo Gov Shintaro Ishihara, insisting that Japan need not apologize for its wartime invasion of neighboring Asian countries, arguing that Japan did Asia a favor by delivering it from Western imperialism.

Even more amazing is that this quote is rather benign in comparison to other statements and positions by the governor.

And he was re-elected.

Not only was he re-elected, he won in one of the largest landslides since Saddam Hussein won re-election. Ishihara beat 19 candidates to garner over 70% of the vote and continues to maintain this remarkably high approval rating. What politician wouldn't love to have a 70% approval rating?

Myths and nationalism are easy tools at the disposal of politicians.

[Rolex]

SirLoin: Five-star officers at the time disagreed with your opinion, not me.

[GtoRA2]

Rolex
 I think your post was interesting and thought provoking, but without the whole statesment from each of those men, things can be out of context.

Not saying they are, just that without the whole coversation or speach sometimes things can be misleading.

I have read some of it before but never with references as to were I can find a full acount.

[GRUNHERZ]

Funny how the Japanese were offering extensive surrender terms in January 1945..

Guess nobody told that to the troops on Iwo Jima or Okinawa - by far the war's bloodiest and most brutal battles, all during a time when Japan was as badly beaten as any point in the last movements of the war...

All reasonable people can endulge in hopeful what ifs borne out of 20-20 hindsight but the truth is that as of August 1945 Japan had not surrendered, operation Olympic was on course for an invasion of Kyushu in late 1945 and America and her new President  were eager to see an end to the war, now. We saw to that end with our new weapons.

What might have been if Roosevelt lived? What if he kept Truman more in the decision making and information loop.. What migh have been if America's policy makers had a more nuanced understanding of Japanese culture wrt to the emperors postion? What if Japan had a more pragmatic rather than culturtally based prorities of the surrender negotiations.. What might have been if Hirohito had more real power over the military and bureocrats? Yes some opprtunities might have been missed by both sides. But in end its a mere what if.. What if.. What if... And those scenarious can go on forever and can be discssed by intellectuals forever...

Hell yes I wish the bombs were not used, I wish Japan gave up.  But in the real time situation the decision was made to use them and the war did end very quickly.

BTW Rolex can you give full sourcesm, with full context and definitive dates for all your quoted comments?

[Rolex]

Here is one well-documented and researched book if you are interested in the topic:

The Decision to Use the Atomic Bomb, by Gar Alperovitz.

And just to be fair, here is my summation of a typical government-approved Japanese history textbook:

Chapter 6: The Unfortunate Inconvenient Misunderstanding in the Pacific

After the evil US military fired on innocent Japanese midget submarines sight-seeing at Pearl Harbor and waged an air-war of terror against Japanese military forces conducting Civic Action projects in China, the oppressive evil Americans attacked Okinawa, killing the entire population of Okinawan civilians and, for no apparent reason, then dropped atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki killing more than one trillion Japanese civilians.

The Americans then militarily occupied Japan under a reign of terror that continues to this day.