Author Topic: The Atomic bomb...why we used it..  (Read 11003 times)

Offline Naso

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The Atomic bomb...why we used it..
« Reply #90 on: January 09, 2003, 10:16:51 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ripsnort
[size=24]Any more questions on WHY the bombs were used?[/size]


[size=24]So you think was revenge?

And drop that megaphone!!
[/size]

:D

Offline Ripsnort

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The Atomic bomb...why we used it..
« Reply #91 on: January 09, 2003, 10:19:20 AM »
If it wasn't revenge as the motive...[size=24]it should have been![/size]  I lost 4 uncles to the hands of the Japanese..

Offline Naso

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« Reply #92 on: January 09, 2003, 10:19:34 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
Sorry, Naso.

They did have other options. They deliberately chose militarism and war long before Manchuria; in fact, most historians place it in the late 1800's beginning with the Meiji restoration.

They pulled out of the League of Nations. They  were a militaristic nation, they chose war; they were the aggressors.


Do you missed this one?

Quote
It's just a fact that, while the other imperialistic nation (US included) were evolving a new imperialistic style, using "aggressive trade", and developing the corrispondent "war", the embargo, still in use today, Japan was stuck (like Italy) in the old fashion mode, the use of force, not realizing (who knows the future?) the consequensies of such aggressive politic in that zone.

Just that.

They had other options?

I dont know, but I can say the option they choosed was wrong, did not had the intended effects.

Offline Naso

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The Atomic bomb...why we used it..
« Reply #93 on: January 09, 2003, 10:22:08 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ripsnort
If it wasn't revenge as the motive...it should have been!  I lost 4 uncles to the hands of the Japanese..


And I lost 2 granfhater's brothers and an uncle (5 years old, strafed by a P51) by hands of Americans.

Do you believe or suggest I have to hate you?

Well, I not hate you.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2003, 10:26:31 AM by Naso »

Offline Ping

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The Atomic bomb...why we used it..
« Reply #94 on: January 09, 2003, 10:24:19 AM »
Disclaimer: I am no way saying that the US started the war against Japan.

 Toad you and I both know how they get started. National leaders don't stay inside their boundries.

 As citizens, are we supposed to blindly go about and do as our National leaders tell us? Or to use our Rights as free moral agents to become conscientious oblectors?
 If More in Germany had of done that than Hitler would have not had the armies to use.
Japanese civilians were the victims of the A-Bomb...not the military Hierarchy. Japan should have stayed put in the nationlal boundries, But it wasn't the military that was forced to pay, it was wives mothers sons and daughters.
 This also extends to our right as citizens of our respective countries to condemn the use of WMD and their inclusion in the arsenal.
 I keep hearing how Saddam is a nut case and he cant have them, But nowhere do I recall him having used them against The Coalition forces or against Israeli soil.  India and Pakistan are currently threatening their use against each other...Where is the moral outrage from bush and the military leaders?
 It is this hypocrisy that is hurting the US and its citizens. No matter how you try to reconcile it it was the US that used these weapons..continues to stock them and allows its "FRIENDS" to play with them.

 I have American relatives, wonderfull people in Montana, So I know that deep down we are all alike, but the National leaders and their policies shape other countries views of who and what you are.
 I realize my thoughts are a little disjointed but I use the flu as an excuse.
I/JG2 Enemy Coast Ahead


Offline Ripsnort

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« Reply #95 on: January 09, 2003, 10:25:32 AM »
Naso, I don't hate the Japanese, but I DO understand why we fought them. Obviously you do not.  I pity you.

Offline Ping

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The Atomic bomb...why we used it..
« Reply #96 on: January 09, 2003, 10:27:05 AM »
Tad condescending dont you think Rip?
I/JG2 Enemy Coast Ahead


Offline Naso

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« Reply #97 on: January 09, 2003, 10:35:16 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ripsnort
Naso, I don't hate the Japanese, but I DO understand why we fought them. Obviously you do not.  I pity you.


WE fought them??

YOU fought that war???

ARE YOU STILL STUCK IN THOSE TIMES??

It's 2003 mister, wake up, it's time to understand the things with cold blood, and stop the emotional crap.

Maybe I can understand more than you imagine, but without really listening what I said, you will never know.

I bet your ideal place it's the Balkan area, they can stir facts for centuries to play with the hate.

Offline Ripsnort

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« Reply #98 on: January 09, 2003, 10:40:56 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Naso
It's 2003 mister, wake up, it's time to understand the things with cold blood, and stop the emotional crap.



Oh, I'm "over it" as you speak, but lest we forget history, we're doomed to repeat it.

Don't forget the SS, Naso.

VIA RASELLA
(Rome. March 23, 1944)
The 11th Company of the German 3rd Battalion of the S.S. Polizei Regiment 'Bozen', consisting of 156 men, were on their regular daily march through the streets of Rome to the Macao Barracks, when they became the target of the Italian underground movement. On March 23 ( the 25th anniversary of the day Mussolini formed his Fascist Party) the police company were climbing the narrow Via Rasella when a bomb, placed in a road sweepers cart, exploded. Twenty six SS policemen were killed instantly and sixty others wounded, two more died later. Some civilians were also killed. The German Commandant of Rome, General Kurt Malzer, drunk and shrieking for revenge, ordered the arrest of all who lived on the street. Some 200 civilians were rounded up and turned over temporarily to the Italian authorities. Hitler, on hearing of the bombing, immediately ordered that 30 Italians were to be shot for every policeman killed. This number was later reduced to 10. Within twenty four hours, 335 people were loaded onto lorries and driven to a network of caves on the Via Ardeatina discovered by the Germans earlier and where the disbanded Italian army had hidden barrels of petrol and some vehicles. At 3.30pm the executions started, each victim ordered to kneel and was then shot in the back of the head. By 8pm it was all over. In 1947, SS Obersturmbannführer Herbert Kappler, who was in charge of the executions, was arrested and faced court in Rome. He was sentenced to life imprisonment. In 1972, Kappler was allowed to marry his German nurse, Anneliese Wenger and in 1976, with her help, he escaped from the prison hospital. Seven months later, at her home in Soltau in northern Germany, Herbert Kappler died of cancer of the stomach. SS General Malzer was sentenced to life, later reduced to 21 years, but died in prison on March 24, 1952. The instigator of this attack on the 11th Company was Marxist medical student Rosario Bentivegna, helped by partisan member Carla Capponi whom he later married. Dr. Bentivegna was later decorated with the Golden Medal of the Italian Resistance and his wife Carla became a member of the Italian Parliament.
Today, the Ardeatina Caves is a Memorial. Nearby is the Mausoleum containing the stone sarcophagi of the 335 victims.
SANT' ANNA MASSACRE
(August 12, 1944)
Just north of Pisa, between the towns of Lucca and Currara, lay the small village of S.Anna di Stazzema. On August 4, British troops had freed the city of Florence (Firenze) and the German armies were now retreating northwards through the mountainous region of Tuscany, ideal terrain for partisan activity. Many of the German troops were killed in ambushes and skirmishes with the Italian underground movement. On August 12, the 6th Panzergrenadieren 'Reichsführer-SS' Division reached the outskirts of Sant' Anna, their orders to shoot on sight all partisans found in the area. Believing that the inhabitants of the Sant'Anna were all partisans or partisan sympathizers, the SS started knocking on doors and shouting 'Heraus! Heraus!' ('out of here!'). Gathered together on the village square, the men, women and children, were then shot in cold blood. In all, 560 people were massacred including 110 children. The houses in the village were then burned to the ground, the church organ was riddled with machine-gun bullets and the christening font completely destroyed by a grenade. Many of the corpses were doused with petrol and then set alight before the SS unit departed.
ATROCITY AT BARDINE SAN TERENZO
(August 20, 1944) In the area around the village of Bardine San Terenzo, the SS 16 Reichsführer Division was deployed to counteract partisan activity against German troops. Seventeen German soldiers had been ambushed and their truck set on fire. All seventeen were killed. A search of various villages was undertaken where the SS looted and burned a number of houses. Fifty-three villagers were taken to the burned out truck and tied to the chassis of the vehicle and to field posts nearby. Next day a local priest, Padre Lino Piane, discovered the fifty-three bodies. All had been shot. Most of the victims were from the village of Mezzana Castello, those from Bardine were taken to Valla and there, shot. There were 107 persons in all. Only five were men, the rest, women and children. In the four days that the search continued, a total of 369 hostages were brutally massacred and 454 houses destroyed by fire. In overall charge of the SS troops in this incident was Major Walter Reder, the one-armed SS officer responsible for the massacres on the Monte Sole.

SLAUGHTER ON MONTE SOLE
(Sept.29 to Oct.1st, 1944)
About twenty kilometres south of Bologna is the massif of Monte Sole, part of the Apennine range. Around this area are dozens of small villages and towns, Marzabotto, Sperticano, Cerpiano, San Martino, Creda and Casaglia to name but a few. When Italy surrendered to the Allies on Sept. 8, 1943, Fascist and German troops continued their harassment of these poor mountain people. Forming themselves into small partisan groups, augmented by deserters from the Italian and German armies (ex Russian POWs) their strength grew to around 1,200 men. Calling themselves the Stella Rossa (Red Star) they confined their activities to sniping, derailing freight trains and the occasional ambush. In their efforts to subdue the Stella Rossa, the German SS often raided small villages and shot hostages. This only increased the determination of the partisans to commit more attacks on the enemy and for the Germans to shoot more hostages. As the British and Americans fought their way north, the SS formed up for a mass attack on Monte Sole. At dawn on Friday, 29th Sept. 1944, the SS attacked. At Creda, the SS surrounded a barn where a group of partisans were hiding. All the men, women and children of Creda, were assembled in the barn and after their valuables and money was confiscated they were machine-gunned, grenades and incendiary bombs were thrown in and the group, about ninety, were left to burn. This scene was repeated at every tiny village and farmlet as the SS units continued their march. Soon, hundreds of fires could be seen on and around Monte Sole, each one a funeral pyre. During the three days of the rastrellamento (Sept.29 to Oct 1st) a total of around 1,830 men, women and children, were brutally murdered by the SS and 420 houses burned. When the SS murder squads moved on, the killing continued as relatives of the victims, searching for the bodies of their loved ones, stepped on the deadly mines laid by the SS. Their commander, one-armed SS Major Walter Reder, an Austrian national, was later arrested by the Americans in Salzburg and handed over to the British who in turn passed him over to the Italians. In 1951, in an Italian military court in Bologna, Walter Reder was sentenced to strict life imprisonment in the military prison at Gaeta. He was released in 1985 and died six years later in 1991.

THE BOVES ATROCITY
(Sept 17th, 1944)
A few kilometres north of Cuneo in Italy, lies the town of Boves. After September 8th, 1943, it became an active center of the Italian underground because of the stationing of many stragglers from the now disbanded Regio Esercito (Royal Italian Army). These partisans were led by Bartolomeo Giuliano, Ezio Aceto and Ignazio Vian. After repeated requests to surrender, the partisans refused in spite of leaflets being dropped by the SS. On the 17th of September the German commander, SS Major Joachim Peiper, ordered two gun crews to shell the town. The partisans again refused to surrender. Two German soldiers were then sent forward (as decoys) to be captured by the partisans. Hoping they would be killed, it would give Peiper the pretext for a slaughter. The parish priest, Father Giuseppe Bernardi and the industrialist, Alessandro Vassallo, were ordered to meet with the partisans and to persuade them to release the two soldiers. The priest asked Peiper 'Will you spare the town?'. Peiper gave his word and the two prisoners were released. But the blood-thirsty SS then proceeded to burn all the houses in the town after which Father Bernardi and Vassallo were put into a car to do an inspection of the devastated town. 'They must admire the spectacle' said Peiper. After the inspection, Father Bernardi and his companion, Vassallo, were sprinkled with petrol and set alight. Both were burned to death. Forty-three other inhabitants of Boves were killed that day and 350 houses destroyed. Next day, a column of armoured vehicles went up the road that led to the partisan base. A lucky shot from their only 75 mm gun destroyed the leading armoured car. After an intense fire-fight the SS retreated with heavy losses. One of the partisan leaders, Ignazio Vian, was later captured by the SS and hanged in Turin. On the wall of his cell he had written in his own blood the words "Better Die Rather Than Betray".
(SS Major Peiper was later brought to trial. See 'The Malmedy Massacre' in the Belgian section below)

Offline Pongo

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The Atomic bomb...why we used it..
« Reply #99 on: January 09, 2003, 10:40:58 AM »
You are all very interested in the decision to nuke Japan.
You all share some interesting misconseptions as to why the decision was made and the back ground for the situation at the time it was made.
Please all of you go to a library and take out the book
           
  Downfall: The End of the Imperial Japanese Empire
 
By Richard B Frank.

I am reading it right now as fate would have it. I highy recomend it.

We will all have a much better grounds to discuss the topic after we have done our research.

I also recomend very highly his book on Guadacanal.

Offline Ripsnort

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The Atomic bomb...why we used it..
« Reply #100 on: January 09, 2003, 10:41:30 AM »
THE BRETTO ATROCITY
(March 23, 1945)
The power station at Bretto, near Udine, in Northern Italy, was guarded by a unit of the Italian Carabinieri consisting if twelve men commanded by Sergeant Dino Perpignano. While returning to his barracks, Sgt. Perpignano was captured by a gang of Italian Communist partisans under the orders of the 1X Yugoslav Corps. At this time the Yugoslav partisans were being supplied by air-drop by the British who had transferred their support from the Cetniks (who were fighting for the restoration of the monarchy) to Tito's Communists because they were killing more Germans than the Cetniks. Threatened with torture, Sgt. Perpignano was forced to reveal the unit's password, thus allowing the partisan gang to enter the barracks and overpower the Carabinieri, some of whom were already asleep. After having ransacked the barracks, the partisans herded their prisoners into an upstairs room and after a while were given food which contained a mixture of caustic soda and black salt. As they started feeling sick they realized they had been poisoned. In severe pain, crying and begging for their lives, they were forced marched to a alpine refuge in the mountains, there to face a terrible death. The Carabineri were then stripped, tied up and brutally murdered by pickaxes and kicks to the body. Some had their genitalia amputated and stuck in their mouths, eyes were gouged out. One had a photo of his five sons stuck into his heart. The corpses were eventually found and interred in a medieval tower at Tarviso. The remains of the twelve Carabinieri, Sgt. Perpignano, Pasquale Ruggiero, Lino Bertogli, Domenico Del Vecchio, Antonio Ferro, Adelmino Zilio, Fernando Ferretti, Ridolfo Calzi, Pietro Tognazzo, Michele Castallano, Primo Amenici and Attilio Franzon, lie forgotten by their countrymen and by history, under the merciful care of some nuns, living in a nearby convent.

Offline Toad

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The Atomic bomb...why we used it..
« Reply #101 on: January 09, 2003, 10:43:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Naso
Japan was stuck (like Italy) in the old fashion mode, the use of force, not realizing (who knows the future?) the consequensies of such aggressive politic in that zone.
[/B]

Nonetheless, the choice for war was of their own volition. Their failure to adapt to the modern international economy still doesn't justify war.

The original point still stands. Japan started the war with overt, armed, aggression........ and a huge number of atrocities as Ripsnort pointed out.

Had they not started the war, there would have been no use of the atomic bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Pretty simple: no war, no atomic bombing.




Quote
Originally posted by Naso

They had other options?

I dont know, but I can say the option they choosed was wrong, did not had the intended effects.


Sure, you know. They could have kept their troops at home. But they CHOSE not to; they chose conquest.

I'm certain that the jubilation of the late '30's had turned to dismay at the failure to achieve the "intended effects" and at the horror of the "unintended effects" they suffered in 1945.

I'm sorry for your family's loss in the war.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Naso

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« Reply #102 on: January 09, 2003, 10:53:23 AM »
Again, morality it's relative, it change in every society, and in time.

Judging a fact in a moral or emotional way it's not History.

The declaration of a war was introduced only late in human modern history, and Japan was stuck in the old fashion but using modern weapons.

In Historical coolblood and cynic way:

a) Pearl Harbor was a mistake, the Japan govenment had the clues to understand that in the economical long run the war cannot be won, for the resources and human power US had and have, they made the bet and lost, and lost the hard way.

b) The A bomb was the right choise, it ended the war, quick and without ulterior US losses (or minimal), they made the bet, some doubt will for sure arise in Trummie mind, since the failure of the "terror bombings", but anyway, there was even the emotional push to have the ok even in the future, again, they bet, and won.

Stop.

In an emotional and/or moral way:

a) it depends from the side and moral "laws" of the judge.

b) it depends from the side and moral "laws" of the judge.

Pandora box.

Offline Toad

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« Reply #103 on: January 09, 2003, 10:59:32 AM »
HISTORICAL ANALYSIS OF THE 14-15 FEBRUARY 1945 BOMBINGS OF DRESDEN

Prepared by:
USAF Historical Division
Research Studies Institute
Air University


There's always another side to the story. Feel free to disagree with this study as I feel free to disagree with many of the points made about Dresden so far.  ;)
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Toad

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The Atomic bomb...why we used it..
« Reply #104 on: January 09, 2003, 11:05:08 AM »
Sorry Naso.

Even under the "old way" a nation that went to war understood that the consequences of losing a war that they themselves started were horrendous.

In fact, under the "old way" all of Japan probably would have been put to the sword. Every one of them.

There's no moral or emotional judgement in knowing what nations started World War 2.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!