Author Topic: The Atomic bomb...why we used it.. (Read 11355 times)

Naso · « **Reply #105 on:** January 09, 2003, 11:11:02 AM »

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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Oh, I'm "over it" as you speak, but lest we forget history, we're doomed to repeat it.

Don't forget the SS, Naso.

I dont forget the SS.

Will be nice, since you have a good copy and paste, to remember the Rodi(?) facts, 1.500 Ita ex-soldiers were killed after the surrender by German SS.

Emotions and moral aside, I think that the "retaliation" (it's correct word?) it's not a good tactic to gain the control of an occupied territory.

You can see something now in Israel-Palestinian sub-conflict.

I know, your mass media system talk only about Israel deaths, but there is a 1-5 or more ratio in retaliation.

To you they say they are all terrorists.

============

Emotional side note: My ex-girlfriend's family it's from Beinette, 5 Km from Boves, his father, age 16 then, was captured by the SS in the field, with his uncle, loaded in a truck, and lined with other people taken on the road.
The MG was already loaded and ready to fire.
They count again (they needed 20 people to kill), there were 21 of them (maybe the officer's descendants live now in Florida), so they randomly took him away from the line.

He was 50 meters, running away, when the SS opened fire, his uncle was killed there.

50 years later (he died in 1999 for cancer) he told me the story, still with tears in the face.

Naso · « **Reply #106 on:** January 09, 2003, 11:18:52 AM »

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Originally posted by Toad
Sorry Naso.

Even under the "old way" a nation that went to war understood that the consequences of losing a war that they themselves started were horrendous.

In fact, under the "old way" all of Japan probably would have been put to the sword. Every one of them.

And you think they did'nt know (or suppose?)

Reread the posts of SaburoS, when he speak about "the american devil".

I am sure they were told of terrible atrocities made by Americans, for sure they were told that no one will have been alive in hands of Americans.

We know it's untrue, but they, then, did'nt know.

Tell me what statement let you think that I am declaring that the axis did'nt start the real war.

I wish to improve my english, please help me.

Dowding (Work) · « **Reply #107 on:** January 09, 2003, 11:18:56 AM »

No GScholz, I'm not sorry I chose 'Dowding'. It's just that he was an old man - I'm 24 y/o. I don't have much in common with apart from nationality. He was just a name that hadn't been used before and had something to do with the RAF.

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Totally unjustifiable, and it shows just how desensitised the allied bomber command had become.

I disagree on the first point.

Interesting point on desensitisation - that happens in war. And when you've fought for nearly 6 years against an enemy which very early on tried to destroy the capital of your country from the air, I'd say you become more de-sensitized.

Toad · « **Reply #108 on:** January 09, 2003, 11:31:33 AM »

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Originally posted by Ping
....But it wasn't the military that was forced to pay, it was wives mothers sons and daughters.

.... But nowhere do I recall him having used them against The Coalition forces or against Israeli soil.

....India and Pakistan are currently threatening their use against each other...Where is the moral outrage from bush and the military leaders?

......It is this hypocrisy that is hurting the US and its citizens. No matter how you try to reconcile it it was the US that used these weapons..continues to stock them and allows its "FRIENDS" to play with them.

Sorry to chop up your post.

The military pays. The civilians also pay. Bascially, the entire population is held accountable for the actions of the politicians they allow to rule them. The US is, IMO, right now being held accountable for our support of Israel's right to exist as mandated by the UN. (Which is a whole new debate and we should start yet another thread rather than hijack this one. I think Israel has vastly overstepped the UN mandate and its time the US acknowledged that and acted accordingly. But that's another thread.) The US is being held accountable for being the primary military arm of the UN as well. While I don't relish the role in the least, we took the responsibility and now we're accountable. We made the choice so that's that.

Iraq did launch Scuds at Israel during the Gulf War. Israel was clearly a non-combatant in that conflict. There is some discussion as to just what was in those warheads.

India and Pakistan. You'll note that the US became immediately involved in defusing that situation and is still working with both countries. You feel that "moral outrage" is the best course for defusing the situation at present?

Yes, we were the first to use them. Seems like to me, that ever since, we've been working harder than anyone to see that they aren't used again. I think that's why we abandoned the isolationism we so eagerly sought after World War I and became the "world's policeman" that so many hate us for becoming. And for which we are paying now.

The theory, technology and means of production of these weapons is well known now. The Manhattan Project is no longer a big secret. There's no way to stop the proliferation...

Toad · « **Reply #109 on:** January 09, 2003, 11:44:22 AM »

Naso, it all comes down to keeping your troops within your borders.

You can tell us Japan just had an old fashioned way of getting natural resources that the other nations did the same in times past, whatever.

But the bottom line is that wars don't start until the troops leave home.

Which brings us back to "if you don't start nothing, there won't be nothing". It applies to all, eh?

Everybody keep your troops at home and there'll be no trouble anywhere.

And, before you start, I wish ALL the US troops were at home right now. You and I have discussed that before, a long time ago.

"Do unto others."

"Mind your own business."

It's pretty simple really. Makes you wonder how the human race keeps screwing up something so simple.

Test question:

The US, along with primarily South Korea and Japan, is right now embroiled in a nuclear arms proliferation problem with North Korea. North Korea is clearly a dictatorship with a failing economyu and an ongoing famine.

Which country in the entire world supplies the most food aid to North Korea?

At least we try. That may be our epitaph.

Boroda · « **Reply #110 on:** January 09, 2003, 12:54:02 PM »

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Originally posted by Toad
Bascially, the entire population is held accountable for the actions of the politicians they allow to rule them.

I don't think that an average American, fed by state and corporate propaganda, is responsible for all acts of agression and mass murder committed by US regime in past 50 years.

GScholz:

Dresden was very different. To deliberately target refugees in the event that the resulting carnage MIGHT slow down German reinforcements is like saying "why don't we kill 135 000 Germans today? ... Who knows, it might help the Russians".

Help the Russians!? That was the last thing they were thinking about.

Dresden had to be in a Soviet ocupation zone. They have done everything to prevent USSR from capturing any German resources.

How about this version?

Yeager · « **Reply #111 on:** January 09, 2003, 01:09:20 PM »

I don't think that an average American, fed by state and corporate propaganda, is responsible for all acts of agression and mass murder committed by US regime
====
Boroda, you are from Russia correct? It only makes sense as your statement above reflects the type of genuine ignorance I would expect from a Russian (aka victim of socialist repression).

In the United States our politicians are elected by the people.
Our government is of the people, for the people. As such, the people are responsible. Trust me on this one, okay

Boroda · « **Reply #112 on:** January 09, 2003, 01:50:02 PM »

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Originally posted by GScholz
Boroda, you are right about the US/UK not WANTING to help the USSR in the race for Berlin, however in this particular operation Churchill had promised Stalin help in form of heavy bomber support. Dresden was close to the eastern front.

Soviet General Staff asked for some bombings to break communication lines in Germany, not for burning down whole cities in Soviet occupation zone. Some people (and they are in this discussion) use this as a reason to blame Russians for Dresden slaughter...

Boroda · « **Reply #113 on:** January 09, 2003, 01:57:50 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Yeager
I don't think that an average American, fed by state and corporate propaganda, is responsible for all acts of agression and mass murder committed by US regime
====
Boroda, you are from Russia correct? It only makes sense as your statement above reflects the type of genuine ignorance I would expect from a Russian (aka victim of socialist repression).

In the United States our politicians are elected by the people.
Our government is of the people, for the people. As such, the people are responsible. Trust me on this one, okay

First: I am NOT a victim of socialist repression.

Here is a problem with your "democracy": everyone is told that he can "vote" and change something, that is obviously not true, and at the same time he should feel responsibility for the actions of the "democraticaly elected" war criminals.

No government acts "for the people". State is only an instrument of supressing personality. In modern "civilized" countries traditional physical supression is replaced by a more effective moral and mental supression.

Toad · « **Reply #114 on:** January 09, 2003, 02:45:57 PM »

Boroda, I'm not surprised.

After all, you still don't acceptRussian responsibility for Katyn Forest even after your government ADMITTED doing it.

And that's only ONE.

Naso · « **Reply #115 on:** January 09, 2003, 04:38:56 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Toad
Naso, it all comes down to keeping your troops within your borders.

You can tell us Japan just had an old fashioned way of getting natural resources that the other nations did the same in times past, whatever.

But the bottom line is that wars don't start until the troops leave home.

Which brings us back to "if you don't start nothing, there won't be nothing". It applies to all, eh?

Everybody keep your troops at home and there'll be no trouble anywhere.

And, before you start, I wish ALL the US troops were at home right now. You and I have discussed that before, a long time ago.

"Do unto others."

"Mind your own business."

It's pretty simple really. Makes you wonder how the human race keeps screwing up something so simple.

Test question:

The US, along with primarily South Korea and Japan, is right now embroiled in a nuclear arms proliferation problem with North Korea. North Korea is clearly a dictatorship with a failing economyu and an ongoing famine.

Which country in the entire world supplies the most food aid to North Korea?

At least we try. That may be our epitaph.

Well, Toad, as you know, in those times, nobody had the troops inside their borders, everyone had colonial occupation forces everywere, BTW, no doubt the aggressive behaviour of Japan was for sure NOT a peace attitude

As for the last part of your post.....

Maybe we can open this pandora box in another brand new thread

We can call it "Use my economy, adapt to my culture or.... become.... evil"

LOL, or we can start a thread about globalization

HALLIIVUUUUUD!!!!

(translated: Hollywood!)

"1941" , with John Belushi.

StSanta · « **Reply #116 on:** January 09, 2003, 06:09:20 PM »

Good examples rip

lazs2 · « **Reply #117 on:** January 10, 2003, 11:24:36 AM »

thing is.... It all worked out for the best. That can't be denied.
lazs

Boroda · « **Reply #118 on:** January 10, 2003, 01:05:24 PM »

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Originally posted by Toad
Boroda, I'm not surprised.

After all, you still don't accept Russian responsibility for Katyn Forest even after your government ADMITTED doing it.

And that's only ONE.

Any ideas about my last post?

Toad, we, in a "specialized" English-speaking school, studied American political system and taught that it is a real democratic system. We where taught to believe that it is not worse (yes, it's the only way ti say this, really tough for that times) then Soviet system...

About Katyn - I told you many times that I don't know and can't make any conclusions, but prisoners shot from German weapons in 1940 at the place where recreation zone and Young Pioneer camps were, and who wrote letters in 1941 make me think somethig is wrong with "official" (dr. Goebbels's) version.

Boroda · « **Reply #119 on:** January 10, 2003, 01:31:38 PM »

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Originally posted by GScholz
Commissar Pavel Pavlov, when I read your last two posts I could not help reading them with a Russian accent and picturing Nikita Sergeevich Khrushchev using his shoe as a judge's gavel in the UN If you don't mind me asking ... did you grow up under Soviet rule or after its fall?

I have told many times that "commissar" is no more then a joke. I only organize parties and meetings and make glintwein

I was born in 1972, was a memner of Comsomol until it was disbanded in 1989 when I was in college. I grew up in Soviet times. Till I was 15 I believed all Communist ideology, then, till I was maybe 22 I believed in Western "democratic" values, now I just want to be left alone and feel great disappointment with any ideology that I met.

My view on history is my own problem. I am sick of Western propaganda, especially it's view on Soviet Union, that is based on works of dr. Goebbels, so when I see two different views on one event - I choose Soviet one, if it doesn't contradict with common sence.

The Dresden bombing is a very difficult thing to judge about. As someone said - 44% of plane crews didn't come back, and I take my hat off for their sacrifice. It was a mission against our enemy, the enemy of all Allied nations. War is a horrible thing, and such things happen. And IMHO we can't judge the reasons for the actions of our allies. What I told you is a "neo-patriotic" version that is popular now, but was never mentioned by Soviet propaganda.