Author Topic: Socialism; scary ainnit? (Read 1347 times)

Daff · « **Reply #15 on:** January 08, 2003, 09:20:39 AM »

"Hey Daff you communists did a great job preserving the environmenbt of eastern europe... WTG comrade!"

What do you mean by 'you'?..You are from there aren't you?..go back and clean up your mess...or are you going to ruin yet another country?

Daff

miko2d · « **Reply #16 on:** January 08, 2003, 09:27:15 AM »

The problem with environment in US is not capitalism but too much socialism.

If property was truly private and property rights protected, then:

1. An owner of the property would have been interested in protecting his posession more than he would care for communal "environment".

2. At worst, an owner could destroy environment on his own property but since he would be precluded from harming property of others, it would be no meat trick.
Like, you can dump any amount of toxic waste into your river and ground water - as long as no waste penetrates into the part of river downstream owned by someone else - that would be violation of his property.

Communal property ownership and "the tragedy of the commons" is what causes some problems in capitalist countries and ecoligical disasters in socialist/communist countries.
If state protected property rights instead of usurping them, all those problems would go away.

As for the whole Unity List - they are just ignorant of two centuries of philosophical discourse which discredited most if not all of such ideas.

miko

Daff · « **Reply #17 on:** January 08, 2003, 09:37:41 AM »

"that would be violation of his property."

And just who would enforce that?.

Daff

udet · « **Reply #18 on:** January 08, 2003, 09:45:06 AM »

kill all commies

Vector · « **Reply #19 on:** January 08, 2003, 10:50:26 AM »

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Originally posted by Tuomio
And of course 15% minimun national unemployment..

Wouldn't that be more like 12%?

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Im currently a student and i pay ~35% of taxes

Huh!?! I'm working with an some what average salary and I pay less than 25% of tax. I don't have any tax lowering things

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And you have to include 22% to that which is the tax for _all_ products/services that somebody sells (food...

Food tax is 17%. Interesting, tho that EU has proven Finland to lower food tax down to 12%, but no actions from the government...

Not that I argue with your message, lots of things that has to be done, it just seems that present government is not able or willing to.

-Vector

miko2d · « **Reply #20 on:** January 08, 2003, 12:03:48 PM »

Daff: "that would be violation of his property."
And just who would enforce that?.

The state obviously. The only task of a state in a free society can be protection of personal liberty and property (which are really the same thing) - protection from violence/threat (person and property) and fraud (enforcement of contracts).

The current state has much more power than needed to guarantee those - but does not. Instead it concentrates on problems it created.

miko

Wlfgng · « **Reply #21 on:** January 08, 2003, 12:11:54 PM »

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SOCIALISM IS THE ALTERNATIVE

for the lazy maybe

Tuomio · « **Reply #22 on:** January 08, 2003, 12:41:06 PM »

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Wouldn't that be more like 12%?

Could be, however ive seen figures of 15%, it varies a lot since the government statistics is hampered (it shows some 8% or so). Old socialistic trick is to alter the statistics and leave the problem alone.

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Huh!?! I'm working with an some what average salary and I pay less than 25% of tax. I don't have any tax lowering things

Well, gasoline tax is 75%, which is plenty to compensate on the "lower" food tax. Plus the 80$ annual car ownership tax. Then theres lots of other things, like 80% tax on booze. My current income tax is 15%. It easily sums the 35% total tax rate and its almost the minimum that you can have in this taxland.

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Food tax is 17%. Interesting, tho that EU has proven Finland to lower food tax down to 12%, but no actions from the government...

They cant lower the taxes, because otherwise they wouldnt be able to pay their bills. Like 300 million $ annual subvention for culture. Which is childs play when we look at what they give for farmers. Finlands problem is, that theres too many people dependent on tax money. It generates situation, where nobody wont dare to cut the spending because their income comes from that same source. Just think those 15% unemployed, would they vote for people that would cut their wellfare? (no matter that it would improve their situation in the end)

GRUNHERZ · « **Reply #23 on:** January 08, 2003, 12:41:56 PM »

Daff you are supporter of communism not me.... And yes socialism is nothing different than communism or any other vein of Marxisism - socialists only lack the courage to be open marxists.

Go to hell commie toejam degenerate!

AKIron · « **Reply #24 on:** January 08, 2003, 01:05:41 PM »

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Originally posted by Dowding (Work)
Unfortunately, these days it takes alot of money to get elected and, in the US especially, that money is raised by being shackled to huge multi-national corporations.

Doesn't take only money, takes votes too, and many of them are bought with welfare checks.

Daff · « **Reply #25 on:** January 08, 2003, 03:04:47 PM »

Groinhurts, where did I say I was a supporter of communism?.

Daff

StSanta · « **Reply #26 on:** January 08, 2003, 03:05:09 PM »

Daff wrote:
"Santa, how much did you pay for your degree?...or the last time you went to the doctor? "

Daff I've worked while studying. As it turns out, i've paid more in taxes than I've gotten off the state. Add to that the taxes my parents have paid - money they could have placed in a fund used to finance the educations of their children.

We pay 75% in taxes at least (including sales tax and various fees). How much of it does a young Danish man with no health problem, no car, no kids, affordable apartment get back in the form of services? A few percent.

You do not find it odd that it doesn't make financial sense to go OFF welfare and into a job if you're married and have a kid? Or go off welfare and onto SU (student grants) because then you have less of a disposable income (of which more than half with be loans).

FWIW, I think that tax paid higher education and medical care is a good thing. Police is necessary too. Motorists should pay for road building; non motorists shouldn't. We should have a force to defend our nation. People should be given a second chance if they are unlucky. But it must not pay off to be irresponsible. It must pay off to work hard and get a higher education. Not very true in Dk today.

Daff, it's no accident that Americans have more purchasing power than Danes. It's not an accident that their economy has been (and still is) stronger than the Danish one.

Education here ain't free. Neither is medical care. We pay through our bloody noses for it through taxes. In a socialistic system, the irresponsible are rewarded (like the druggie unemployed neighbor. He is eligible for welfare and is getting more than I would. I am not eligible because i saved money for a rainy day. Social worker did some calculationas and judged that it should last me two months. She forgot to factor in over half of my bills though. Tough for me.) and the responsible are left without any benefits. The state will argue that they can do without help so money can be saved there. Then again, why should they pay?

I guess this is no way to have the discussion though. We should go through one topic at the time instead of the rambling I just made. It'll then become clear that there are major deficiencies in our system. It was hard to admit for me because I've been spoon fed that it's fair and near perfect. But since I've accepted the truth this brainwashing has annoyed me more and more.

You could probably say what some people I thought were my friends said - "I'm looking forward to the time when you leave this country". It's sad one cannot be critical and point to obvious flaws. This misplaced patriotism isn't really patriotism at all.

So ignore the above opinions Daff. You pick a topic or I will, and we can objectively debate it. The numbers are quite scary though (talking economy/redistribution of wealth here).

GRUNHERZ · « **Reply #27 on:** January 08, 2003, 03:24:29 PM »

Daff if you're a socialist then you're a communist... And by your words you are both. Anyway I hear health care and education are "free" in Cuba and North Korea so why dont you just pack up and head out to those wonders of socialist labor.

K98k · « **Reply #28 on:** January 08, 2003, 03:36:57 PM »

What does this have to do with this debate absolutely nothing, but I had a good laugh

Daff · « **Reply #29 on:** January 08, 2003, 06:44:04 PM »

"It was hard to admit for me because I've been spoon fed that it's fair and near perfect. But since I've accepted the truth this brainwashing has annoyed me more and more"

Huh?..DK got one of the highest standards of living, one the best public healthcare systems, a good, free education system and you claim you have been brainwashed?.
It's nice that your parent made enough money to potentially pay for your education and health...mine didnt and I it would have been highly unlikely that I would ever have gotten to where I am today.
I presume you're not going to claim benefits, now that you are unemployed then?.

I didnt leave Denmark because of taxes, salaries or various policies (Cost of living in London is probably at least twice for half the standard of living and starting salaries are a joke), but because of the limited opportunites in my field...but if you don't like it, why don't you leave?

Daff