Author Topic: Post some feedback on Socialism  (Read 864 times)

Offline Ike 2K#

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Post some feedback on Socialism
« on: January 09, 2003, 11:52:34 PM »
post something that is "the good", "the bad", "the ugly", and the reality about socialism.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2003, 11:57:54 AM by Ike 2K# »

Offline GRUNHERZ

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Post some feedback on Socialism
« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2003, 01:40:02 AM »
Children love socialism...

Offline Dowding (Work)

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Post some feedback on Socialism
« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2003, 02:25:18 AM »
That's communism, Grunherz, which is to socialism what facism is to conservatism.

I could equally post a picture of Hitler, receiving flowers from children on his birthday, with the caption "Children love conservatism".

Offline GRUNHERZ

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Post some feedback on Socialism
« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2003, 02:31:12 AM »
Uhhm no. Conservatism is not like fascism.  Fascism has always had lack of individual choice and responsibility, largely state run economies, socialist economic and welfare policies, attacks on religion, etc etc.  In fact fascism is very close to socialism/communism, the key difference fascism is more concerned with isolated nationalism where communism/sociaism tries harder to spread its filth due to an internationalist bent.

Offline GRUNHERZ

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Post some feedback on Socialism
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2003, 02:33:37 AM »
Hitler was a radical and at first even a mild communist- though that was always kept very quiet , but he was always nationalstic. So was Musollini first a socialist/communist.

Socialists are just cowardly communists.

Offline Dowding

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Post some feedback on Socialism
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2003, 03:13:25 AM »
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Fascism has always had lack of individual choice and responsibility..


Depends on what individual choices/responsibilities you are talking about. Censorship, the rights of the mother versus the unborn child, racial segregation as an historical custom - conservatism has plenty of examples where the freedoms of the individual are inhibited.

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largely state run economies


Untrue. If you had the right connections in Nazi Germany, your company could make a lot of money. Completely different to communism which advocates the nationalization of all private endeavour.

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...the key difference fascism is more concerned with isolated nationalism...


Yeah, Hitler was a true isolationist. Especially when it came to annexing the whole world.

Mussolini only wanted a little lebensraum, that extended to the whole of the African continent.

Try again Grunherz.

Socialism is not communism like conservatism is not facism.
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Offline GRUNHERZ

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Post some feedback on Socialism
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2003, 03:33:30 AM »
And nobody got rich in the soviet union. BS BS BS.... And dont go for second thinking any of those german industrialists were free to produce just what they wanted as would be in a free economy. It was a planned economy.

Every political leaning has some different personal freedom limits. Fascism simply has limits that are against conservatie ideals like individual responsibilty and accountability.    

Isolated nationalism just means they were very much focused on the specific single country and ethnic group as opposed to internationalist bent of the commonists.  It has nothing to do wih invasions etc.

Socialists are just cowardly communists, they want to steal the money from middle and upper classes and take it for themselves and their interests or use to gain power among ignornt poor people or those with childish understanding of economics.

Offline Dowding

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Post some feedback on Socialism
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2003, 03:45:40 AM »
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And nobody got rich in the soviet union. BS BS BS....


Point out where I denied it.

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And dont go for second thinking any of those german industrialists were free to produce just what they wanted as would be in a free economy. It was a planned economy..


Compared to communism, they had much more freedom. If they had the right connections, they could do pretty much as they pleased.

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Fascism simply has limits that are against conservatie ideals like individual responsibilty and accountability.


In some areas, yes. In others, no. Does that mean conservatism and facism are the same? No.

And the same token, socialism and communism are not the same.

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Isolated nationalism just means they were very much focused on the specific single country and ethnic group...


You are effectively admitting to the misnomer then. There is nothing isolated about the Nazi flavour of nationalism; the principal idea was to unite the Aryan race and subjugate the 'lesser' races of the world.

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...as opposed to internationalist bent of the commonists.


You almost make them sound like free-thinking internationalists. Russian Soviet Communists didn't really believe in the brotherhood of man - it was all abut subjagation.

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Socialists are just cowardly communists...yada, yada, yada


Conservatives are just cowardly fascists...

What a pair of imbecillic arguments.
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Offline Kelly[KGN]

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Post some feedback on Socialism
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2003, 05:31:47 AM »
Hi,

agree to Dowding, and for I have my knowledge about Germany in '33-'45 not only from books, I might have a little deeper insight.

Offline Holden McGroin

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Post some feedback on Socialism
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2003, 06:03:43 AM »
Getting back to the intent of the thread…

The Good:  The intentions of socialism are to care for and cooperate with our fellow man:  A noble sentiment.

The Bad:  In practice, one needs to follow a policy that uses more base instincts than the altruism that is the hallmark of socialism.  When power is concentrated in those who decide what is good for us, then that power corrupts.  That centralized power structure decides many things that are not based on the best economic sense.  When an individual has responsibility for his own existance, he has more self worth, more control over what happens in his own life and faster response to changing conditions. In a tribal society, socialism is a viable system.  When we became industrialized, we require capital, and that is most easily developed by capitalism.

The Ugly: When the socialist system fails, as it is destined to do, much hardship ensues.  Russian Mafias, corruption, starvation, etc. all are most easily built in the breakdown of the society that occurs when the economic system fails.

The Reality:  All systems today are some mixture of capitalism and socialism.  The portions of that mixture and the freedom of the populace to elect its leaders are the variables.  The USSR was not a communistic society, as pure communism would have trusted its populace to a much larger degree than the dictatorial system of the old communist bloc.

The best economic system would be closer to the capitalistic side of the spectrum, with a minimal socialist side to help people recover from setbacks, and get back into the productive workforce as quickly as possible.

Holden’s Ursa Theory of Human existence.

For man to achieve his utmost, he needs to be challenged.  People can be analogous to bears in Yellowstone.  Feed the bears, and they become problem bears.  They live at the landfill, getting fat and lazy, then they raid the campgrounds, and develop “criminal” behavior.  If not fed, and challenged to live the hard life, they dine on wild berries, elk, and venison.
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Offline miko2d

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Post some feedback on Socialism
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2003, 10:45:30 AM »
GRUNHERZ: Uhhm no. Conservatism is not like fascism.  Fascism has always had lack of individual choice and responsibility, largely state run economies, socialist economic and welfare policies, attacks on religion, etc etc.  In fact fascism is very close to socialism/communism, the key difference fascism is more concerned with isolated nationalism where communism/sociaism tries harder to spread its filth due to an internationalist bent.

 Not really true. All collectivist totalitarian states necessarily become nationalistic. All of them did - Russia, China, Yugoslavia, Germany, etc. Read Hayek's "The Road to Serfdom" for more complete explanation.

 Hitler did not build collectivism in Germany - it had 80-year old Prussian tradition of collectivism that he inherited. Hitler's "revolt", if any, was not aganst liberals but against some socialists (industrial trade-unionists) who had power in favor or other socialists - intellectuals and non-large industry workers. Just conflict over the spoils, not fundamentals.

 That's why communists and trade--unionilst so readily joined nazi party. hey had the same ideology.

 Ugly thing about collectivism in any form - despotism, communisn, fascism, socialism is that a person has no freedom but is a servant of the "state" and must live according to arbitrary decisions of others.
 Also, planned economy cannot work and you have strife and famine.
 Also, any system based on goal is incompatible with having even a concept of morals. There cannot be anything fundamentally good or evil - everything is judged in how it helps the current goal set by a ruler. So freedom of thought cannot be allowed.

 Other than that, it's fine.

 miko

Offline lazs2

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Post some feedback on Socialism
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2003, 10:50:48 AM »
You mean nobody in the soviet union had fancy houses and vacation homes and servants and cars and fancy clothes and jewelry and......

Everyone had the same income?
lazs

Offline Ripsnort

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Post some feedback on Socialism
« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2003, 10:55:10 AM »
Ask Sweden. (Hint: 70% taxation of your income)

Offline mrfish

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Post some feedback on Socialism
« Reply #13 on: January 10, 2003, 11:11:05 AM »
man- anyone take the middle path around here?  such polarity :)

Offline miko2d

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Post some feedback on Socialism
« Reply #14 on: January 10, 2003, 11:18:36 AM »
mrfish: man- anyone take the middle path around here?  such polarity :)

 Ever tried to get half-way pregnant? Same with collectivism. Either abort it or let it develop to it's necessary conclusion. No middle.
 Can't have rulers with arbitrary power and not being able to exercise it - it would not be arbitrary otherwise. Cant't have any degree of socialism without having people exercise arbitrary power.

 miko