To The Rumble Fw 190A-5 pilots

[Hristo]

Thanks to your immense skill and great bravery, you have once again proved that the best pilots in the world fly for the Luftwaffe.

The pilots who participated in this historical figh :

Camo
Snefens
Udie
Berserkr
Nath11
BigJoe
RAM
Vulcan
Dingy
Stoickov

are all awarded a Knight Cross Congratulations !

Also, these pilots will have the right to fly the Dora once it comes out of factory lines.

Horrido !

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Stoickov
JG54 "Grünherz"


[This message has been edited by Hristo (edited 07-23-2000).]

[Hristo]

And here's the film of this great fight :

The Rumble

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Stoickov
JG54 "Grünherz"

[RAM]

WTG LW guys!!! We rocked!

I was doubting if to fly or not to fly the rumble until the very last moment. In the end Camo convinced me to join the LW...

so THANKS CAMO!...

<S!> P51's pilots (except one little runner  ) it was a blast!

Horrido!  

[LLv34_Camouflage]

<S!> to all pilots who participated. Oh yeah, and a "hi" to all the pony "flyboys".    

Hristo, I remind you that Snefens and I are Officers of the Finnish Air Force.  

Well, enough of bragging: It was an honour to fly in this event, I hope we can take a rematch in the near future - icons off or limited!  

And RAM, it was a pleasure flying with you.  No 190 match would be complete without your effort!  

<S!>

Camo

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Camouflage
XO, Lentolaivue 34
 www.muodos.fi/LLv34

Brewster into AH!

"The really good pilots use their superior judgement to keep them out of situations
where they might be required to demonstrate their superior skill."

[Hangtime]

Skill?? Bravery??

Yer fulla horsecrap Hristo.

Yer vaunted LW did not merge correctly.. you brought them in two groups with the rear group higher than 15k.

Neither you or the ref's are able to understand the ROE?? Read it again. Mathman; thought u had an education.. and could read. You blew it. Period.

"Aircraft may climb to a maximum of 15k and no higher PRIOR to merge. Merge alt to be at 15k. Guns are COLD at the merge.. due to the large numbers of A/C and the likelyhood of their being somewhat spread out; the observers will announce 'fight's on' after merge conditions are completed to their satisfaction. (all a/c have passed clear of each other co-alt at @15k) Note that if you collide on the merge you are DEAD; you may not replane."

Further.. the LW when called on this refused a refly.

Bogus.. pure crap and days outta my life wasted because these pinheads can't read. Jeeezus; I'm so freakin pissed...

Udie.. why did you not bother with ROE? I'm stunned. As a ladder pilot I expected honesty from you. Cheap move; that.

LW.. you won nothing except my disgust.

And I'll thank the Snapshot folks for not scheduling one hour after a Rumble in the future. Thanks.

Hang

 



[This message has been edited by Hangtime (edited 07-23-2000).]

[Fariz]

To be honest you proved only that 190a5 is superior to p51, what I told long time before.

Hope that one day we will chance to fly it RAF against LW.

Fariz

 


[This message has been edited by Fariz (edited 07-23-2000).]

[LLv34_Snefens]

S! to all. It was great fun.

I was lukcy to only get through minor damaged as I 3 times had a pony on my six closer than pleasant.

I was first 190 in the line and was happy that a cold merge had been agreed. After the merge I went up in an Immelman and looked up

         

I went back into the fight and got on a p51's six. He went low with me right behind hitting him, and suddenly he broke up.

         

I now had a pony on my six, but he only damaged my cannon as he overshot.

         
         

I then got behind another p51 and smoked him.

         

He kept going for a while together with two other ponies also heavy damaged but soon to be dead.

         

These pics are a bit simplistic of what really happend but grab my film for the whole thing (1.1 Mb) home14.inet.tele.dk/snefens/rumble.zip


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"Head-ons are for pilots that don't know what their next move should be"

Ltn. Snefens
RO, Lentolaivue 34

[This message has been edited by LLv34_Snefens (edited 07-23-2000).]

[RAM]

 

Originally posted by Hangtime:
"Aircraft may climb to a maximum of 15k and no higher PRIOR to merge. Merge alt to be at 15k. Guns are COLD at the merge.. due to the large numbers of A/C and the likelyhood of their being somewhat spread out; the observers will announce 'fight's on' after merge conditions are completed to their satisfaction. (all a/c have passed clear of each other co-alt at @15k) Note that if you collide on the merge you are DEAD; you may not replane."

So...when Referees call Fight on, you are free to climb at will isnt it?. I saw clearly the "fight on" call, and so all pilots there.

I readed the ROE but the last word is of the referees and they called FIGHT ON. Punt. Like it or not, but if you dont like it, hang, please tell the Referees not us.

BTW for the time I started the immelmann there were 2 P51s over 18K. Can you explain it?.

And I did say nothing about it I simply dealed with them instead thinking that it was a cheat.

But that is not the matter, anyway. Udie and BERSERKR dragged 5 (FIVE) P51s low to the deck by themselves, and was THEN when you lost the rumble ,not before.

So dont blame LW, step a bit outside and take a look again. You'll see what I mean.


 

Further.. the LW when called on this refused a refly.

Look Hang, exactly 5 minutes after ending the rumble I was called to take dinner by my parents, and I cant ignore such call   . I told to delay it 1 hour but there was a snapshot running after the rumble. We had 8 pilots available on LW side but there was an event running after us.

So again you arent objective with us, in this matter.


We won. From my point of view it was a fair fight. You may disagree but still you dont see the important thing, hang.

We had fun. All of us.

And that is what matters in the end isnt it?  

[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 07-23-2000).]

[Hristo]

 

Originally posted by Hangtime:
Skill?? Bravery??

[/b]

Exactly. I was always aware of best pilots in the world flying for the Luftwaffe  

It is not easy to take 1943 design against 1944 super ride, with its .50 cals enojoying range finders and extending its effective range beyond historical limits  

 

Yer vaunted LW did not merge correctly.. you brought them in two groups with the rear group higher than 15k.

2nd group was never above 15k until "Fight's on" was called. At that moment several P 51Ds were above us (watch the film).

 

Neither you or the ref's are able to understand the ROE?? Read it again.
 

[/b]

I understood that when orders are give the fight is on. Your higher P 51Ds seemed to have understood it correctly.


 

Further.. the LW when called on this refused a refly.

When we have the proper airplane (the Dora, in this case, not an 1943 A-5).

We fought even though the rules clearly favored P 51D side and its adavantages.

First the no icons was a problem. Then merge altitude was lifted to aid P 51D. Seems you won the RoE fight  .

Face it, your pilots blew it. Smartly flown P 51 can beat 190 and you know it. That ack hugger seemed to be the smartest of all the Pony jocks  

Next time we fly without icons too.


 

Bogus.. pure crap and days outta my life wasted because these pinheads can't read. Jeeezus; I'm so freakin pissed...

[/b]

Are those Pony pinheads ? You should have planned you strategy better. Now the P 51D contingent lacks these same pinheads that died in The Rumble   .

 

Udie.. why did you not bother with ROE? I'm stunned. As a ladder pilot I expected honesty from you. Cheap move; that.

[/b]

2nd group was never above 15k until fight was on. At that moment P 51Ds were higher than us. We just continued climbing.

 

LW.. you won nothing except my disgust.

[/b]

Hehe, we are still enemies. But some respect might be in order. Afterall, we proved our point, right ?

P.S.

It is my opinion that Allied side here whined a lot more than Luftwaffe. Remember no icons discussion ? Blending camo and 190 conspiracy ? 190s not dropping wings when stalling ? About LW hiding and avoiding the fight ? And now RoE violation ?

What's next ? Porked FMs ?  


 

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Stoickov
JG54 "Grünherz"

[This message has been edited by Hristo (edited 07-23-2000).]

[Hangtime]

Repeat.. you proved diddly.. this is just pure crap. Just watched yer film.

You lead 12 planes against our 10.

And; you blew the merge ROE flat out.

When Udie offered to boot the xtras; you refused.

The two section ROE bustin merge was PLANNED.

Scum. You get NO respect. Yer lower than cat crap.

Hang

[RAM]

 

Originally posted by Hristo:
2nd group was never above 15k until fight was on. At that moment P 51Ds were higher than us. We just continued climbing.

I support that affirmation. While I was going thru the P51s with FIGHT ON Call done, as soon as I surpassed them (I was in the vanguard a bit after Snefens) they started pulling a zoom away.

As soon as I started the immelmann after merging with the rear P51's I looked vertical and I saw just the same as Snefens' snapshot shows. In that snapshot, BERSERKR, udie and Hristo havent merged the P51s and there are FOUR!!!!! P51s HIGHER THAN the "cheating" Udie and Berserkr.

Hangtime please...you have all my respect, but this time you have the proof just on your noses, if someone cheated here it wasnt the Luftwaffe.

Please calm down and take a look to what happened.

We won in a fair fight. We flew better. We did better.

So we are legal winners.
   

It is my opinion that Allied side here whined a lot more than Luftwaffe. Remember no icons discussion ? Blending camo and 190 conspiracy ? 190s not dropping wings when stalling ? About LW hiding and avoiding the fight ? And now RoE violation ?

I think that with no icons on we would have won by even more, maybe 9-2 instead 9-4 (that of course if Citabria keeps on Huggin ack and running away instead fighting  )

I,again, salute you the nine good P51 pilots. Was a blast!

<S!>

[Kieren]

Hangtime-

I did my best in all ways. Sorry you are so disappointed.  

[typhoonc]

Was it really 12 on 10 LW favor?  If so, then this doesn't prove much.  Let's just get this straight before we argue anymore.

I was on the allied side and hangtime and I landed once we were already in the air because we thought we outnumbered you.  
  I'm still not saying that the LW pilots did not fly well or anything like that, because they did allright, but if the odds were stacked in their favor..

Also, I think Hangtime is a little peaved about not being able to fly in this thing.  He was kinda the main P-51 guy, and like me, im sure he was kinda pissed when he had to make the decision to land.

BTW, my nickname in the rumble was CJ

[Camel]

Yep I count 12 v 10 in Snefens pic, Hang bumped himself and CJ in fair play. Bummer!

Who's the opportunist's?

Shame Shame!


Was still fun (sorta)  

[Hristo]

 

Originally posted by Hangtime:
Repeat.. you proved diddly.. this is just pure crap. Just watched yer film.

You lead 12 planes against our 10.

This is where you have the point !

Luftwaffe pilots and Allied opportunists, I appologize for greatest mistake I made in AH.

Just watched the films carefully.

There were 11 190s, not 10  

By checking formation I saw MooseEAF as part of our squad ("Luftwaffe"). That's when I told him that he is no part of our squad. No replies on channel 4. Others informed me about squad clone possibility.

And it was true, he formed his own Luftwaffe squad and flew with us !!!

Even when we found out it was still my impression that we had 10 pilots, not 11  . My mistake was to turn down Udie's offer(that's when I replied to Udie: "NO, WE NEED HIM TO EVEN THE NUMBERS").

I never wanted this guy to fly with us and was actually pissed about how the hell he entered our squad. He proved it by getting shot among the first and hanging in his chute during most of the engagement.

Sorry, this is a serious mistake on my side, our formation had 11 instead of 10 planes. There were 12 and even more planes on the runway, however I told them to exit plane (minus and Niteflyr can confirm this).

I appologize about this mistake and you are right. Our 11 plane formation was against the rules. However, it was not inentional and never planned. A toejamty coincidence.

If others agree, we should have a rematch. And only due to the 11th man. Other rules were never broken, at least not by Luftwaffe side.

And; you blew the merge ROE flat out.
[/g][(quote]

??? 15k level merge, waiting for referee to announce the Fight's on. How do you explain higher P 51s then ?

When Udie offered to boot the xtras; you refused.[/b]

You have the point here. My mistake, big enough to put shame on Luftwaffe side in this duel.

I was never aware that we have 11 planes. However, if you want to blame your failure on a newbie (or possible provocator) forming his own Luftwaffe squad clode, you are free to do so. I can't add more  (Image removed from quote.).

The two section ROE bustin merge was PLANNED.
[/b]

Two sections were planned. RoE bustin' was not planned and RoE was not broken. Check the film.

Scum. You get NO respect. Yer lower than cat crap.
[/b]

I admit my mistake sabout MooseEAF.

The rest is not true, Luftwaffe pilots beat you there, despite 11th man.



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Stoickov
JG54 "Grünherz"