Author Topic: Governer of Illinois commutes death sentances...  (Read 1055 times)

Offline StSanta

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Governer of Illinois commutes death sentances...
« Reply #30 on: January 13, 2003, 02:03:58 PM »
mrfish, I sincerely hope that if your way is implemented, you will not have a loved one murdered by the state.

Murder by definition is an unlawful killing. The killing of an innocent by the state is thus murder. WHo shall go to trial? The jury? They decided, after all. The politicians? They have something to say too. The prosecutor and the judge too.

If there's doubt, don't recommend the death penalty. Not just 'beyond reasonable doubt' - I am talking air tight

Stuff like this shouldn't fly:

THE GIRVIES DAVIS CASE

Girvies Davis, age 37, was executed at the Stateville penitentiary in Joliet, Illinois, on May 17, 1995, for the 1978 murder of 89-year-old Charles Biebel at his home near Belleville. "This is the kind of case that gives the death penalty a bad name," former Chicago Police Superintendent Richard J. Brzeczek, an ardent supporter of capital punishment, proclaimed a few days before Davis’s execution.

There was no physical evidence linking Davis to the crime. No witness placed him at the murder scene. But Davis, an African-American, was convicted of the murder by an all-white jury almost solely on the basis of a written confession, which Davis had signed at a time when he was illiterate. While in police custody, Davis had signed similar confessions to virtually every major unsolved crime in a two-county area including three murders the authorities acknowledged he could not have committed


THE DAVID WAYNE SPENCE CASE

David Wayne Spence, age 38, was executed at the Texas state prison in Huntsville on April 3, 1997 for the 1982 murders of three Waco teenagers Jill Montgomery, 17, Raylene Rice, 17, and Kenneth Franks, 18. According to the prosecution theory of the case, Spence had been hired by the owner of a convenience store to kill another girl and mistook Jill Montgomery for that person. The other victims, prosecutors claimed, were killed because they witnessed the Montgomery murder.
Spence "almost certainly was innocent," according to New York Times columnist Bob Herbert, who has reported that both the police lieutenant who supervised the 1992 investigation and the detective who conducted it are persuaded of Spence’s innocence. "My opinion is that David Spence was innocent," the detective, Ramon Salinas, told Herbert. "Nothing from the investigation ever led us to any evidence that he was involved." For details, see Herbert’s columns of July 25 and 26, 1997, in the New York Times.


These are just exerpts of cases where there is doubt. For cases where it's a fact that an innocent was executed:

Article 3 of the decleration of human rights:
 "Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person."

Which is violated in the case of an innocent being executed.

Also, fair trial means racism should not be part of the picture.
"The application of the death penalty in the USA is racist: a study showed that a black person convicted of killing a white was 15 times more likely to be condemned to death than a black who had killed a black."

'Race, ethnic origin and economic status appear to be key determinants of who will, and who will not, receive a death sentence.' UN expert who visited the USA in 1997.

Further:
A recent study (In Spite of Innocence: Erroneous Convictions in capital Cases (1992). Michael L. Radelet, Hugo Adam Bedau &Constance E. Putnam. Northeastern Univ. Press: Boston, MA.) has produced evidence of 416 US cases in which innocent people were convicted of offenses punishable by death. These cases -- from 1900to 1992 -- include 23 who were executed.

Other than that, when the case is watertight, I see no reason why the f@rk€r shouldn't fry.

Offline majic

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Governer of Illinois commutes death sentances...
« Reply #31 on: January 13, 2003, 02:22:49 PM »
"This A-hole was the worst Governor in Illinois history. He lost the last election due to allegations and an impending Federal indictment for corruption and racketeering. Oh, did I mention that he's a republican with extremely close ties to the Bush family? Things that make you go hmmmm. "


A few points as a fellow Illinois resident (Illinoisan?).  First, He did not run in the last election.  It was Jim Ryan that lost to Blagoyevich (sp?).  How could you make that mistake and claim to be carefully following this?

Second, I do agree with you that he's the worst governor I've ever seen in Illinois.  The Illinois First stuff was a horrendous piece of legislation.  And what was the point of that trip to Cuba?

Third, could you document these close ties to the Bush family as I've never heard this once in my life.

Offline miko2d

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Governer of Illinois commutes death sentances...
« Reply #32 on: January 13, 2003, 03:19:41 PM »
StSanta: Also, fair trial means racism should not be part of the picture.
"The application of the death penalty in the USA is racist: a study showed that a black person convicted of killing a white was 15 times more likely to be condemned to death than a black who had killed a black."


 Does that mean that black murderers are dealt too harsh with or too leniently? Should they be sentenced to death of blacks 15 times more often?

 That would be unfair because a huge part of black-black murder is gang violence or drug-related turf wars where two parties are hostile and are actually "at war" and are trying to kill each other, etc. People have a choice whether to join a gang or a drug ring and understanding what dangers such membership involves.

 That is very difefrent than a black killing a white who is mostly an unarmed innocent rather than willing participant in illegal activity and confrontion.

 BTW - I am not trying to make a recial point - just that you compare apples to oranges ang get BS as a result.
 If you were not so lazy, you could easily find clear cases when white jurys acquited obviously guilty white racist murderers - though probably not many in recent times.

 miko
« Last Edit: January 13, 2003, 03:22:58 PM by miko2d »

Offline H. Godwineson

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Governer of Illinois commutes death sentances...
« Reply #33 on: January 13, 2003, 03:25:11 PM »
A case by case review would be the only fair thing to do.  Fair for the defendant;  fair for the victims.  A blanket pardon is arrogant and idiotic.

An Arkansas governor (the rarest of all political birds) once did the same thing shortly before leaving office.  Winthrop Rockefeller pardoned several death row inmates.  One of these was a man from Trumann (I forget his name) who killed a man and his wife, set their house on fire, and threw their children back in to the burning structure as they tried to crawl out the window.  Two managed to escape, walked for two miles across a field in freezing weather, and find help.  They later testified against him in court, which led to his conviction.

Individual case review is the ONLY way to go.

Shuckins

Offline midnight Target

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Governer of Illinois commutes death sentances...
« Reply #34 on: January 13, 2003, 05:02:27 PM »
Quote
How wrongful convictions happen: Gary Gauger's calm gave a cop a hunch. But it was Gauger's trusting nature that gave police a murder tale that day in 1993. Gauger says that during 18 hours of nonstop interrogation, detectives insisted they had a "stack of evidence" against him. They didn't–but it never occurred to the laid-back farmer that his accusers might be lying. Instead, he worried he might have blacked out the way he sometimes did in the days when he drank heavily. So Gauger went along with police suggestions that, to jog his memory, he hypothetically describe the murders. After viewing photos of his mother's slit throat, Gauger explained how he could have walked into her rug shop next to the house ("she knows and trusts me"), pulled her hair, slashed her throat and then done the same to his dad as he worked in his nearby antique-motorcycle shop. To police, this was a chilling confession. Even Gauger, by this point suicidal, believed he must have committed the crimes.


He didn't.

Offline midnight Target

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Re: These not even close to the truth!
« Reply #35 on: January 13, 2003, 05:45:19 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by TWOLF
I don't know what you based this post on.  But as a resident of Illinois and a person that has been following this issue, I can say with complete confidence that you don't know the facts here.
 
  The Illinois Death Row problem that has been brought up reflected a small minority of offenders.  True that those few were tragic mis-uses of justice, however the majority of the offenders that Ryan granted clemency Are guilty with Overwhelming evidence to include DNA confirmation of their crimes.  Why should any Taxpayer be forced to feed, cloth and maintain a shelter for these Insects? There are certain crimes that should carry swift and permanent punishment.  These people should not be breathing, and Ryan has abused his power and forced them on Illinois Taxpayer's for the remainder of their lives. I am not a big fan of Blegojwich (spelling?) but he would have to try very hard to equal Ryan's Corruption, and mis-use of power.


Sooooooo...

1. How small or large of a minority is necessary to reflect a damaged system?
2. What facts have I misquoted?
3. Your opinion of the death penalty is irrelevent to then issue.

Offline mrfish

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Governer of Illinois commutes death sentances...
« Reply #36 on: January 13, 2003, 05:49:58 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by StSanta
mrfish, I sincerely hope that if your way is implemented, you will not have a loved one murdered by the state.


me too. i could only imagine my own reaction if i were in that spot - on death row unjustly.

i'd sit up at night waiting for the axe and regretting my fate i'm sure, but i'd know that 150 or so sumsasqueakes around me that really did do it are going too-

Offline mrfish

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Governer of Illinois commutes death sentances...
« Reply #37 on: January 13, 2003, 06:18:38 PM »
ps- i think with the death penalty, juries will be more likely to throw out murder cases.

they have to find them guilty beyond the shadow of a doubt now, knowing the death penalty was a consequence of a guilty verdict should make juries really commit to their decisions.

Offline StSanta

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Governer of Illinois commutes death sentances...
« Reply #38 on: January 14, 2003, 06:07:47 AM »
miko, premeditated murdr is premeditated murder. No matter whether you kill a white innocent or a black gangmember.

On a sidenote, I had to show Rip and Toad I'm not a Republican. I oppose the death penalty as it is in the US. 'Reasonable doubt' isn't good enough when it comes to taking an action that cannot be reversed. So what I did was browse two or three web sites after using 'execution USA innocent' as a search criterion.

And look what I come up with. :D

On a serious note; a 15 to 1 discrepancy does indicate prejudism in the system. Perhaps much of it can be explained the way you do, but I'm pretty sure that isn't all there is to it - not with the racist history the US has. And I should say that DK was just as bad back in its days - I mean we had slaves and stuff in the West Indies. We set them free eventually, but still. Stupid French and Brits were reluctant to do so and had a revolution on their hands.

Anyway, I did a new search, bit more thorough. Seems like there is no clear evidence either way.

One report, “Justice on Trial: Racial Disparities in the American Criminal Justice System,” finds the following:

"that minorities in the US face discriminatory treatment at every stage of the judicial process, from arrest to incarceration. The 94-page report was issued by the Leadership Conference on Civil Rights based in Washington DC. Its findings show that blacks, Hispanics and other minorities face unfair targeting by police and other law enforcement officials, racially biased charging and plea bargaining decisions by prosecutors and discriminatory sentencing by judges."

On the other hand, a statistician says that when everything is taken into consideration (prior offences, area etc) then there is no cultural or racial bias.

http://www.mugu.com/cgi-bin/Upstream/Issues/race/justice.html

It says about the studies done on the subject:
"The bulk of the evidence amassed since then on justice system bias is far less conclusive. Plenty of studies exist showing no bias in arrest, prosecution, adjudication, and sentencing. While plenty also exist that show possible evidence of bias, the general consensus among criminologists is that the evidence is not strong"

and

"Racial bias studies never completely take into account all of the legitimate factors that determine how a ease is handled, Consequently, these unmeasured factors might explain a racial disparity if the factors are ones on which the races differ. Given the small disparity in the first place, such unmeasured factors become potentially important.

Existing racial bias studies share another limitation. They do not tell us how all or even most black defendants in the United States are handled at each of the major stages of the justice system, Instead, they tell us how blacks are treated at a single stage, or in one jurisdiction, or for particular offenses."

That site says that it is: "These pages are a home for the intellectually heterodox, the politically incorrect and other independent thinkers. A home for outlaws".

Gonna check it out to see whether it is racially biased itself. OTOH, it has cool Devils Dictionary quotes all over the place, and quotes from Shakespeare and stuff, so can't be all bad :D

Offline sourkraut

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Governer of Illinois commutes death sentances...
« Reply #39 on: January 14, 2003, 11:11:46 AM »
Both sides of the issue appear to agree that the costs
of death penalty are higher than life incarceration.  See below.
To me (a fence sitter) the issues boil down to:
- Is the Death Penalty severe enough?
  My take - nope, it is a cop out.
- Is Life without Parole a more severe punishment?
  My take - nope, but it should be. Take away all the
  priviledges and maybe so.
- I don't know if the killing of innocents is the issue here.
  How many innocents have died in prison while serving
  life sentences? My guess is far more than on Death Row now.
- Is the death penalty applied fairly?
  My take - obviously not - just look at the statistics.

Following from the anti-death penalty side:
http://www.ncadp.org/html/fact3.html
Capital Punishment costs more than life without parole:

Various state governments estimate that a single death penalty case, from the point of arrest to execution, ranges from $1 million to $3 million per case.
Other studies have estimated the cost to be as high as $7 million.
Cases resulting in life imprisonment average around $500,000 each, including incarceration cost.


Following from the pro-death side:
http://www.thenewamerican.com/tna/2002/06-03-2002/vo18no11_fallacies.htm
Fallacy #2: Cost

It costs more to execute a person than to keep him or her in prison for life. A 1993 California study argues that each death penalty case costs at least $1.25 million more than a regular murder case and a sentence of life without the possibility of parole." (deathpenalty.org)

Correction: While these figures are dubious at best, this argument deserves no response. Justice isn’t up for sale to the lowest bidder.

Offline TWOLF

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Just the Facts Mam!
« Reply #40 on: January 14, 2003, 03:02:39 PM »
Here are the Facts.

  George Ryan is going to go to trial for Corruption, and Racketeering while the Governor of Illinois.  The Feds were going to tri him in Wisconsin because Defense Attorneys are worried that it would not be possible to tri him in Illinois fairly due to all the press coverage.  Then all of a sudden out of the clear blue Sky Ryan decides to grant clemency to all the death row inmates in Illinois.  Now he is all over the National, and Global news.  Do any of you see the pattern here?  That's what this is about.  Ryan hasn't done anything Human here.  He is continuing to Screw the public while trying to save his own prettythang.  
  I hope he Fries!

Offline TWOLF

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Majic
« Reply #41 on: January 14, 2003, 03:27:41 PM »
I just noticed your post.  Your Right.  It's wasn’t' George in the last election it was the Other Ryan who spent most of the campaign attempting to separate himself from Georgy.  George choose not to run in light of the Federal investigation into his activities as Governor and his ties to the Licenses for Bribes scandal.  My Mistake and I am glad you pointed that out.  The two are old Verdoliak (Chicago Democratic turned Republican Alderman, long story) cronies, and I am fairly sure they are related.  Hence my foopa.

Offline midnight Target

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Re: Just the Facts Mam!
« Reply #42 on: January 14, 2003, 04:21:28 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by TWOLF
Here are the Facts.

  George Ryan is going to go to trial for Corruption, and Racketeering while the Governor of Illinois.  The Feds were going to tri him in Wisconsin because Defense Attorneys are worried that it would not be possible to tri him in Illinois fairly due to all the press coverage.  Then all of a sudden out of the clear blue Sky Ryan decides to grant clemency to all the death row inmates in Illinois.  Now he is all over the National, and Global news.  Do any of you see the pattern here?  That's what this is about.  Ryan hasn't done anything Human here.  He is continuing to Screw the public while trying to save his own prettythang.  
  I hope he Fries!


Irrelevent again.

The system was/is flawed. No question about that. His motives are irrelevent as is his impending corruption trial. Even if he did it to save his bellybutton and not for humane reasons, it was still the right thing to do.

Even a blind squirrel stumbles across a nut now and then.