Author Topic: Aviation flight sims in general  (Read 296 times)

Offline AKcurly

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Aviation flight sims in general
« on: September 09, 2000, 05:08:00 PM »
I have a good friend who taught air force pilots how to fly fighters as part of his regular air force duties.  He flies all manner of fixed wing aircraft, both prop and jet.

He's also a programmer and indeed has written several flight sims.  He doesn't work for HTC.

According to my bud, no sim, including his, Aces High, War Birds & etc. approach reality.  There are just too many differences in the interfaces.  What you strive for are the following:

1) Realistic performance characteristics
2) A sim interface which attempts to suspend reality.

Most of us are clueless when it comes to actual performance characteristics of many of the birds.  All of us have opinions.

The LuftWobbles want their a/c to kick ass; the yanks and brits express similar feelings.

All of us are certainly entitled to an opinion --- our $29.95.    We vote with our credit cards.  

It's OK to say "I don't like the FM."  Hopefully, when you say something like that, you will have *LOGICAL* reasons to back up your assertions.  Hopefully, you will produce charts which show the performance curves of airplane X are unrealistic.

You guys have any idea what it's like to produce a work of art and have your critics say "phewwwww" and not be able to give substance to their statements?  Heh, me either, but it must suck mightily.

curly


Offline StSanta

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Aviation flight sims in general
« Reply #1 on: September 09, 2000, 06:54:00 PM »
curly

I'm gonna be a programming geek, not an aeronautical engineer.

What I can come up with is things that in my mind strike me as "very odd indeed".

Like me in a 109, 450IAS, meeting a low chog. Chog does a 180 sharp turn, I gently go into a zoom, he follows, catches me, misses shot and dives away.

Now, to my untrained brain, with my experiences with energy things, when lots of force is applied to move a thing, and very little force is applied to moving another thing and when starting position is somewhat similar, this would mean that a BS flag goes up iny my head, and my objective voice says "oh, how most fascinating!", all why my emotional side goes "aaaaargh this is so $€£$@ up!".

So, all I can come up with is "I don't like it, because this to me is counterintuitive to everything I know or have experienced.". I'll listen to an explanation, and if it is satisfactory or impossible to counter, I'll end up accepting it. In AH as in real life.

WHat I don't like about new fm;

rudder slip. Skid plane sideways, expose much more to air resistance. There are simple rules of physics about the force needed to overcome a square foot of air resistance at different speeds, so this ain't too hard. Why does fully deflecting my rudder at 210IAS @ 1k not result in any significant speed loss, when throttle is at minimum? Inertia? Would think gravity and wind resistance would overcome it.

The F4u was, AFAIK, an e fighter, yet with the new FM, a lot of people are, quite succesfully, using it as an angles fighter. This strikes me as odd (the success, not what people do  ).

Lancasters at 35k. Enough said.

Spins much gentler, and easier to correct. Departed flight characteristics also makes life easier. This might be more true to real life, but since HTC are competent, I wonder how they could have gotten it that much off the first time? Are these characteristics a function of e retaining capability and some other factors?

Haven't used CT, so won't comment on that.

A8 characteristics have improved, but not enough to offer an alternative way of fighting  with it. I read somewhere that A( and F4U have roughly the same wingloading. Of course, it's only one factor, but also read that it is one of the more significant ones. SHould they not have similar characteristics? Or is the wingloading difference bigger than what I've read on this board?

109F4 fm seems to have been left untouched. Alarm flag raised when a G10 could flat turn with me (thanks Swager, was fun  ). I might be wrong.

These are, IMHO, valid observations/questions, yet I am almost afraid of posting them here, because I'll be labelled a whiner and that's the end of it. I'm sincere when I make them, and wish no harm to HTC nor do I want to discredit their hard work.

I ain't quitting just yet  .



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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
"If you died a stones throw from your wingie; you did no wrong". - Hangtime

Offline AKcurly

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Aviation flight sims in general
« Reply #2 on: September 10, 2000, 02:37:00 AM »
StSanta sez:

>These are, IMHO, valid >observations/questions, yet I am almost
>afraid of posting them here, because I'll be
>labelled a whiner and that's the end of it.
>I'm sincere when I make them, and wish no
>harm to HTC nor do I want to discredit their
>hard work.

StSanta,

No one would dare label anyone a whiner if they posted data comparing the current flight model to the real fm.  However, when people start using phrases like "it seems to me" and "according to basic physical laws," yeah, I think folks will take exception.  Heck, it's like people are arguing whether chocolate tastes better than vanilla.

StSanta, if you think the 1.04 FM for say the F4U varies significantly from the actual plane, why not prove it?  It would do all of us, including HTC a service.

Opinions though are not worth a warm bucket of spit.    Let's have the numbers, man!

curly


AKSeaWulfe

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Aviation flight sims in general
« Reply #3 on: September 10, 2000, 02:51:00 AM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by StSanta:
109F4 fm seems to have been left untouched. Alarm flag raised when a G10 could flat turn with me (thanks Swager, was fun   ). I might be wrong.

Blasphemy! Don't talk about my baby that way you axis luftwabbling weiner brain! :-P

Seriously, F4 got some bigger nutz in this version and can really do some damage. I could hold onto the tails of F4Us, SpitIXs(!!!), P38s, 190A5s etc really easily. I don't use CT(disabled) and I carry up 75% gas, I also drop a notch of flaps when I am allowed to which helps out a great deal. Use a LOT of elevator trim to increase the rate of turn.

I think ya should take 'er into a furball and see what you can do with it. Don't use direct pursuit either. Point it into the sky and get the edge on your opponent rather than following him directly. Use rudder to help out your rolls.
-SW

Offline StSanta

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Aviation flight sims in general
« Reply #4 on: September 10, 2000, 03:24:00 AM »
Curly:

I'll say "this doesn't seem right", and then rely on guys liked funked, vrm and so forth to tell me whether it is possible or or my suspicions are indeed right.

I agree that "this fm sucks" posts ain't useful, but posts like "it seems odd that the 10F4 can sustain 15g turns for 30 seconds" are quite acceptable, at least to me. I can't even explain why it shouldn't be able to do so mathematically, even though I know it has to do with wingloading, engine power etc etc etc.

Regarding the F4; I do all that. I've been a dedicated 109 pilot for several tours, and I know how to fly this baby. I see quite a few F4's now, and they all do the Loop Routine. Does it quite well, but that baby ain't a flat turner when a light G10 can rival it. Or put in other words, it's not much of a flat turner *compared to the G10* if it can stay with it  . Granted, I carried gondies, but still.



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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
"If you died a stones throw from your wingie; you did no wrong". - Hangtime

Offline Hajo

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Aviation flight sims in general
« Reply #5 on: September 10, 2000, 07:05:00 AM »
As for me.....I'll wait before giving my impressions.  Unfortunately I've not had the best of connections past couple days.  and I don't think my adversaries have either as evidenced by all the warping I've seen.  I did however get into a two vs one with me A5 against a pony and a tiffie.  was a great deal of fun and the new FM allowed my a5 to be successful in defeating both.  Of course luck had nothing to do with it <G>
- The Flying Circus -

Offline Andy Bush

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Aviation flight sims in general
« Reply #6 on: September 10, 2000, 11:08:00 AM »
Well...everyone is entitled to their opinion.

However, I've instructed in the F-4, F-104, and A-10...and I have to say that air combat sims in general do one heck of a job.

In the late 70s, I was one of the instructors in the new and spiffy air combat simulator at Luke AFB, Az. The simulator was about as big as a basketball court and attempted to provide a 3D simulation of air combat. Compared to what you can get for $40 today in one of our games, that simulator was a dinosaur.

I only wish I had had one of these sims back then...it would have made training a bunch easier.

StSanta

Airplanes are neither energy fighters or angles fighters on their own. They can only be placed in one category or the other when compared to another aircraft. For example, the P-51 may have been considered an energy fighter when compared to a Spitfire, but against a Me-262, the 51 was an angles fighter.

Andy

Offline StSanta

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Aviation flight sims in general
« Reply #7 on: September 10, 2000, 01:31:00 PM »
Roge-o Andy. Dinnae see it from that perspective.

An F4U turn fighting with a 109F4, is it then an angles fighter?

Just curious.

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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
"If you died a stones throw from your wingie; you did no wrong". - Hangtime

Nath-BDP

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Aviation flight sims in general
« Reply #8 on: September 10, 2000, 01:49:00 PM »
StSanta, you taking those halucinagens(sp?) again?

F4U has no chance in angles fight with F4.

[This message has been edited by Nath-BDP (edited 09-10-2000).]

Offline StSanta

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Aviation flight sims in general
« Reply #9 on: September 11, 2000, 01:56:00 AM »
Nath, no my drug experimenting days are over, too old for experimenting.

All I am saying is that I've seen F4U's turning with 109F4's for several 360's, and winning.

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StSanta
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"If you died a stones throw from your wingie; you did no wrong". - Hangtime

Nath-BDP

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Aviation flight sims in general
« Reply #10 on: September 11, 2000, 02:43:00 AM »
Perhaps unexperienced newbie F4s against well-piloted F4Us? :P