Author Topic: Blue on Blue Afghanistan incident - Pilots on Amphetamines...  (Read 1300 times)

Offline Tuomio

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Blue on Blue Afghanistan incident - Pilots on Amphetamines...
« Reply #45 on: January 15, 2003, 05:27:50 PM »
Caffeine has laxative effects and people tend to have high tolerance on it because of coffee.

Offline gatso

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Blue on Blue Afghanistan incident - Pilots on Amphetamines...
« Reply #46 on: January 15, 2003, 05:54:18 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Dowding

gatso - an RAF spokesman said they don't prescribe any drugs like amphetamines for their personnel.
Yeah. You have to be careful though. 'Not prescribed' is not the same as 'we don't use them at all'. It's not exactly the sort of thing we'd want to advertise is it?

I'm absolutley possitive we don't use them during regular peace time training activities but go ask any RAF squadron Doc whether he carries em in his case when they get deployed to anywhere that real combat could be expected and I'm 95% sure you'd find them on the inventory as a 'just in case' item. Unless a very recent RAF pilot chap I had a few chats with quite recently was telling fibs a few FAA/RAF pilots took the 'official' speed during the Falklands and DS.

Gatso

Offline texace

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Blue on Blue Afghanistan incident - Pilots on Amphetamines...
« Reply #47 on: January 15, 2003, 06:18:19 PM »
That's what I get for being differnet...:rolleyes:

Had the roles been reversed...I'd feel no different. Firendly fire happens...it's part of war. Had it been American troops...the shock is still there...it's no different.

What gets me is the fact there's a trial over something that happens during wartime. These pilots are put on trial for a criminal thing for something that happens in war. They said they were getting shot at...they did what most pilots would do to protect themselves.

I never said it was a funny thing that it happened to Candians...I never commended the American pilots for killing firendlies...all I said was the trial was a crock. My entire famliy's military, and I'll be joining here real soon anyways, and I've always carried the upmost respect for men in uniform. Men died to protect my freedom...and I don't piss on that.

Grocery store job doesn't exsist anymore, Thrawn. Why do you tihnk I'm joining the military? Don't judge me on what I post here...

semp out...

Offline Gman

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Blue on Blue Afghanistan incident - Pilots on Amphetamines...
« Reply #48 on: January 15, 2003, 07:03:18 PM »
Item 1: I'm not in favour of this trial.

Item 2:  I knew one of the people killed, and 2 of the others who were wounded, and have a good friend who was good friends with Sgt. Leger who quite frankly should be in psychiatric care he's been so volatile since the incident.  This effects me in a closer way than it does most of you.


Hblair, that was the first I've heard of a missile, the pilots so far as I've heard only saw tracer fire going into the air (this is confirmed by Canadian troops, there were riccochets from full auto MG fire going skyward).

BTW Texace, the training grounds were about 3 or 4 miles from the end of Khandahar's main runway.  It's not like it was out in the middle of knowhere.  

The problem is that the US pilots were briefed to expect a lot of AAA, as Iran was suspected of supplying the Taliban with a lot of AAA hardware, and to EXPECT fire from anywhere.  The Canadian excercise was OMITTED from their briefing.  All this crap about the uppers etc is exactly that: crap.

The pilots called AWACS serveral times requesting clarification that there was in fact NO FRIENDLY troops in the area.  In my book they did their part, and any pilot who sees tracer fire near their aircraft will surely drop a bomb on the source if given the chance to.  


The failure was in the briefing staff and the communications between ground and air forces in terms of co-ordination of exercises, this is a KNOWN issue as several ranking officers over there warned that this specific incident was just waiting to happen.

It's a shame that these pilots are on trial, but US guys, realize it's more the USAF putting them on trial than the Canadian Forces, as the USAF knows that their briefers and the officers put in charge of co-ordination (no Canucks were allowed in on this) are the ones who dropped the ball, and obviously THEIR rank supercedes the F16 pilot's innocense.

It was a horrible accident, but the finger is being pointed in the wrong place.

Also, a little tibit for your gay little attitude Texace:  

When the PPCLI engaged in the operation on the whale, the Canadian troops had to CARRY their own water and food for the duration of the operation, UP the freaking hill.  The 10th mountain troops got flown in to a higher spot, where the Canucks had to CLIMB, PLUS got their rations and water FLOWN in daily.  

35% of the 10th mountain went down to heat/altitude exhaustion during the festivities.  Zero Canadians went down.

Not to mention the fact that our sniper units working with SF, Delta, and various Seal teams racked up more bodies than anyone else, inlcuding the longest combat shot in the world, earning the highest praises from the most elite units in the USA.  In the words of one Seal:  The Canadians are equivalent to us in terms of capabilites, and this is their regular line infantry.

Enough said.

PPCLI

Offline texace

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Blue on Blue Afghanistan incident - Pilots on Amphetamines...
« Reply #49 on: January 15, 2003, 08:54:00 PM »
Allow me to get one thing clear, Gman...

Never once did I bash the Canadian troops...nor did I ever say they were inferior. I knew the Canadians had the short end of several sticks in this war. (IE...issued jungle camofluage netting instead of desert brown)

I never said the Canadians were anything...other than in the wrong place at the wrong time. You said yourself the exact same thing I said...that the Americans were defending thmeselves for a believed enemy attack.

Don't put words in my mouth...

Offline Sandman

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Blue on Blue Afghanistan incident - Pilots on Amphetamines...
« Reply #50 on: January 15, 2003, 09:17:51 PM »
The amphetamines are irrelevant. Mistakes happen in war time. They always have and they always will.

Nowadays, if they encounter a "blue on blue" engagement, the victims don't have time to call up on the radio and get the shooting to stop. They're dead.

Welcome to the world of the precision guided munition. Right or wrong target... both equally dead.
sand

Offline Chanter

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Blue on Blue Afghanistan incident - Pilots on Amphetamines...
« Reply #51 on: January 15, 2003, 09:43:08 PM »
"Canada's crying again...doesn't surprise me. This trial is a crock...if Canada can't handle war...they should stay out of it... "

"I never said the Canadians were anything...other than in the wrong place at the wrong time. You said yourself the exact same thing I said...that the Americans were defending thmeselves for a believed enemy attack. "


Oh contraire mon frere.

We handle (have handled) war just fine, but thanks for your concern.  

I love the internet - if only the machismo displayed by folks from behind their computer monitors could be harnessed... what a mighty army there'd be.
1841 Fleet Air Arm

Offline Gman

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Blue on Blue Afghanistan incident - Pilots on Amphetamines...
« Reply #52 on: January 16, 2003, 12:10:55 AM »
Quote
We handle (have handled) war just fine, but thanks for your concern.


I submit Vimy Ridge, where Canadians broke the Germans back after every other country failed, and literally turned the tide of the first world war, and outperformed all their allies in every major war and exercise since.



The one thing that IS of interest to me in regards to the upper pills is how the USAF will deem you unfit to fly if you DON'T take them, yet still calls their use "voluntary" (so says the Pilots lawyer, and the DOD isn't disputing it).  Too bad Eagl is banned, I'm sure he'd have a lot to contribute on this issue.

I hope the people with honour and intelligence prevail in this inquiry, and they fix the PROBLEM and not the blame.

Offline Gman

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Blue on Blue Afghanistan incident - Pilots on Amphetamines...
« Reply #53 on: January 16, 2003, 12:19:59 AM »
The latest:
Quote

BARKSDALE AIR FORCE BASE, La. (CP) - Officials in charge of air operations in Afghanistan could do nothing to protect Canadian soldiers killed in an accidental bombing because the situation escalated too quickly, a member of the team testified Wednesday.
Col. Larry Stutzriem was part of the Coalition Air Operations Centre, or CAOC, based in Saudi Arabia last April 18 when he heard a distressing transmission over the radio. Stutzriem said he heard an air controller advising a U.S. pilot to hold fire while they checked into reported surface-to-air fire.

The pilot, Maj. Harry Schmidt, was requesting permission to use a 20-mm cannon on ground forces he thought were attacking him and his lead pilot, Maj. William Umbach.

"Then right after that, there was a call from (the Airborne Warning and Control System) that the air crews had declared self-defence," Stutzriem said at a hearing looking into the friendly fire deaths of four Canadians.

"There was nothing CAOC could do for them, nothing there to start the process."

Less than three minutes elapsed between Schmidt first seeing the ground fire and his dropping a 225-kilogram laser-guided bomb on the Canadian troop that was conducting live-fire training exercises near Kandahar.

Two video displays portrayed in chilling detail the final seconds before Schmidt deployed the bomb.

As he passed over the training site at an undisclosed altitude, Schmidt said he saw men on a road below. After asking to fire on them, he is told by a controller to "just make sure that it's not friendlies."

Seconds later, he says he thinks the troops are firing on him and Umbach, who is flying alongside in another F-16.

Schmidt makes a decision and, breathing heavily, says "I am rolling in, in self-defence." Then, "bombs away, breaking left."

A large plume of white smoke is seen on the infrared images as the bomb explodes on the Canadians below.

"Shack," Schmidt says in response to the blast.

Controllers on the AWACS plane respond almost immediately with a haunting message: "Disengage. Friendlies, Kandahar."

Schmidt complies, but then asks, "Can you confirm that they were shooting at us?"

Stutzriem, who was stationed at the Prince Sultan Air Base, said the request to fire on the ground troops was "extremely unusual, something you wouldn't expect" at night.

Stutzriem said the air crew "was in complete control of the situation," implying that the pilots should have relied on more instruction from the controllers.

Families of some of the dead Canadian soldiers watched the video via closed-circuit TV in a room on this base in Bossier City, La. They were not available for comment.

Defence lawyers said they would respond to Stutzriem's testimony Thursday.

The pilots have been charged with involuntary manslaughter, aggravated assault and dereliction of duty. The hearing will determine if there is enough evidence to court martial them.

The two pilots maintain a communications breakdown left the air crew unaware of the coalition training exercise.

Earlier in the day, several of the eight Canadian soldiers injured in the attack described what happened in the early-morning hours as the bomb detonated on top of them.

Seconds after he heard an eerie whistling overhead, Cpl. Rene Paquette said he was hurled into the black night sky with thoughts of his newborn daughter racing through his mind.

Paquette was climbing a steep drainage ditch on the range when a bright, deafening flash lit up the darkness around him.

"I was enveloped in white light," Paquette, 33, testified Wednesday.

"I could see the ground just below my hands and feet and it occurred to me, 'Why can't I touch the ground?' "

"I thought 'Please give me a chance to see my child.' "

Paquette, who suffered permanent hearing loss and flash burns, was called to appear at this base in northern Louisiana to testify on behalf of the U.S. military.

The soldiers, all members of the Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry, were using mostly small arms to practise on targets on the range once used by al-Qaida terrorist forces.

Paquette, straining to hear questions, said ricochets and tracers from the training exercises would have produced occasional bright flashes and white light. Some of the fire would have been directed skyward as the men targeted an old Soviet tank.

Master-Cpl. Curtis Hollister, who suffered burns to his face after being thrown through the air, said some of the fire was directed at an angle of 45 to 70 degrees.

Lawyers defending the pilots argue the ground flashes and airborne fire made the pilots believe they were being attacked.

The six-member defence team focused Wednesday on the rate of fire, the weapons used and the angle at which the rounds were being shot.

Some of the Canadians have testified weapons were being shot into the air, but that the spent ammunition would have burned out well below the pilots.

Military lawyers showed a still picture of grainy video footage taken from Umbach's cockpit that displayed Schmidt locking on the men as they practised below.

Sgt. Lorne Ford, who was acting as an exercise observer that night, calmly named each soldier as Schmidt was heard telling controllers he was rolling in.

Seconds later, he dropped the bomb.

The scene below descended into chaos.

Ford, 33, said he heard the sound of a jet overhead, then blacked out.

"I was blinded in my right eye," he said before limping out of the hearing room. "I had lacerations all over my body and shrapnel was all over my body."

Cpl. Brett Perry, who was involved in the anti-tank exercise, started searching the arid terrain for survivors. He came across the bodies of Sgt. Marc Leger, Pte. Nathan Smith and Cpl. Ainsworth Dyer, but realized someone was missing.

The area, a desolate, rock-strewn expanse, was so dark that he "tripped over Pte. (Richard) Green," who was thrown from the blast.

Schmidt and Umbach could face up to 64 years in military prison if the case goes to a court martial and they are convicted.



Everyone has suffered enough.  Most if not all the families DO NOT want the US pilots to go to jail over this, an exact quote by one of the fathers of the fallen : Enough families have been destroyed over this accident, there is no need to destroy any more.

It takes a big man to say that, and if he can, so should the rest of us.

Offline Dowding

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Blue on Blue Afghanistan incident - Pilots on Amphetamines...
« Reply #54 on: January 16, 2003, 02:53:14 AM »
Quote
That's what I get for being differnet...


Is that what you call it? You almost make yourself sound like something special, perhaps a child prodigy. Written any piano concertos recently? How about Booker prize winning books? Or maybe you've specialized in inane posts dripping with redundant machismo... I'm sorry, mate, you've got alot of competition around here.

Quote
Never once did I bash the Canadian troops...


Oh dear.

Gman:

Quote
...and outperformed all their allies in every major war and exercise since.


I'm interested - what do you base this conclusion on?



« Last Edit: January 16, 2003, 02:55:25 AM by Dowding »
War! Never been so much fun. War! Never been so much fun! Go to your brother, Kill him with your gun, Leave him lying in his uniform, Dying in the sun.

Offline Ping

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Blue on Blue Afghanistan incident - Pilots on Amphetamines...
« Reply #55 on: January 16, 2003, 04:28:57 AM »
Gman, Does Dieppe count?

What happened to the American Chopper pilot that disobeyed orders and Killed fellow Americans in the Original Gulf war? This is not the first time that there has been actions taken regarding FF.
Just seems to be Highly publicized.

I'm going to presume that their Mil career is over but will be no Jail time. All this to protect any REMF that prolly should take the blame.
I/JG2 Enemy Coast Ahead


Offline texace

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Blue on Blue Afghanistan incident - Pilots on Amphetamines...
« Reply #56 on: January 16, 2003, 08:15:50 AM »
What the hell is this beating of chests about? In my original post I made comments on how the trial was not nessecary, a crock, and that there was no reason for it.

Now y'all make it seem like I killed the troops out there and is pleased about what I did...

Look...I do not hide over the Internet...I do not pretend I am someone I'm not. I do not consider myself special. Come down off your high horse and quit puffing your chests out. I did not bash the soldiers in the field, I made a comment on how the Canadians wanted a trial so justtice could be served.

I've never heard of any other trials regarding friendly fire, only now. You want the real reason I think like I do? Talk to my parents...

Quit trying to make it seem like I'm the bad guy...if you're going to be sensetive that I critisize something like this, then by all means tell me, lest I hurt your little feelings. Come on...I have my own opinion and I'm entitled to it. It's just that, an opinion...

(edited to fix spelling)

:rolleyes:

Offline SLO

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Blue on Blue Afghanistan incident - Pilots on Amphetamines...
« Reply #57 on: January 16, 2003, 10:05:24 AM »
brothers killing brothers......bad...very bad I say

but to blame them.....WRONG!!!

those pilots where doin there JOB....maybe a little fast on the trigger...maybe on drugs...who gives a chit.....DO NOT BLAME THE FLYERS FOR DOIN THERE JOB.....they where there to PROTECT our ground troops......there was a FAILURE OF COMMUNICATION.

now brothers vs brothers with words......STOP guys you sound childish.....

Canada WILL always HELP our brothers from the south....

nuff said....

Offline Sandman

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Blue on Blue Afghanistan incident - Pilots on Amphetamines...
« Reply #58 on: January 16, 2003, 10:32:06 AM »
I'm betting that fatique is far more mind altering than the "go" pills they were taking.
sand

Offline StSanta

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Blue on Blue Afghanistan incident - Pilots on Amphetamines...
« Reply #59 on: January 16, 2003, 11:32:08 AM »
I've heard a different description of what happened.

The pilot called in that there were possible AAA fire below him. He was told by ground controllers to wait while they checked if there were friendlies around.

Then there was more firing, after which the pilot called *going in'.

Anyone tried amphetamines? It feks you up. Makes you overly aggresive and severly limit your inhibitions. You'll do stuff you wouldn't do not high on it. And that's what i think ahppened here. Pilot high and aggressive, a possible target below. Loss of inhibitions (maybe I should check first) and then the bomb was dropped.