Author Topic: Affirmative Action (Read 6302 times)

Nash · « **Reply #105 on:** January 19, 2003, 08:20:39 PM »

This just in:

(FWIW... it doesn't add to the debate - just newsworthy)

"Secretary of State Colin Powell said Sunday he disagrees with President Bush's position on an affirmative action case before the Supreme Court.

Powell, one of two black members of Bush's Cabinet, said he supports methods the University of Michigan uses to bolster minority enrollments in its undergraduate and law school programs. The policies offer points to minority applicants and set goals for minority admissions.

"Whereas I have expressed my support for the policies used by the University of Michigan, the president, in looking at it, came to the conclusion that it was constitutionally flawed based on the legal advice he received," Powell said on the CBS program "Face the Nation."

It was a rare public acknowledgment of dissent with the president and with other top White House aides."

NUKE · « **Reply #106 on:** January 19, 2003, 08:25:32 PM »

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Originally posted by Thrawn
NUKE, would you be willing to pay more in taxes for school improvement in impovrished areas, if AA was eliminated?

Again, Im keeping to the topic of AA being un-constitutional because it is illegal to descriminate or give preferencial treatment based on race. Care to argue that point?

Kanth · « **Reply #107 on:** January 19, 2003, 08:38:30 PM »

AA parents aren't less intelligent as their white counterparts they are just more likely to get a better job because of their race.

I'm wondering exactly what study materials aren't provided to blacks ? what study classes aren't they allowed to attend that the whites are allowed to attend that gives them a disadvantage?

What limits their access all over the spectrum from high to middle to low income blacks , that they are disadvantaged versus the same level of income family of white students?

what injustice is being done as far as education to these people based on race?

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Originally posted by Thrawn

Why then are AA parents not as smart as their white counter parts?

Thrawn · « **Reply #108 on:** January 19, 2003, 08:39:36 PM »

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Originally posted by NUKE
Again, Im keeping to the topic of AA being un-constitutional because it is illegal to descriminate or give preferencial treatment based on race. Care to argue that point?

Where does it say it is illegal to descriminate or give preferencial treatment based on race.

Thrawn · « **Reply #109 on:** January 19, 2003, 08:45:33 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Kanth
what injustice is being done as far as education to these people based on race?

The high schools they attend are generally have less quality of education because they don't have the financial resources that other schools have.

Urchin · « **Reply #110 on:** January 19, 2003, 08:51:43 PM »

I've gotta say, like I always do, that I think the difference in test scores has an economic reason, rather than a racial one. Black and Hispanic people are more likely to be poor in the U.S. than whites- and the test scores reflect this. Asians, on the other hand, are typically just as well off, if not more wealthy, than whites, and their test scores are similar.

I also think it has something to do with culture in that Asians and most wealthy white families place something of an emphasis on education and 'book smarts', whereas a poor black student may be more concerned with survival than education.

Thrawn · « **Reply #111 on:** January 19, 2003, 08:52:58 PM »

Urchin, why are Black and Hispanic people are more likely to be poor in the U.S.?

capt. apathy · « **Reply #112 on:** January 19, 2003, 09:00:46 PM »

Who says they didn't go further.

you did. Quote from your post-"Today, even blacks whose parents have the same level of education and income as a comparable sample of whites score about 120 points lower on average,”

"Same level of education and income as a comparative sample of whites" not further but 'same' & 'comparative'

What leads me to believe the stats are in accurate? - I don't believe they are inaccurate, but no study or info is mentioned, just a quote from some guy in Time. Not enough to prove accuracy, but I am willing to coincide that it could be true and showed you an example of how this could be explained without racially biased tests.

Quote-
You are the one that stated that black people who gets jobs through AA are stupider then white people. Which makes me wonder why you think they are stupider.

Not those blacks that get jobs through AA are stupider than whites. But that if blacks get additional points on tests when applying for jobs then for any given position the blacks in that position would generally have scored lower on the employment test to a magnitude of whatever the points awarded through AA.

For example-

A Company is hiring for 3 different positions. 1 requires a score of 90 or better on the company’s test, another requires an 80, and yet another requires a 70. The one requiring a 90 pays better and has more benefits. The 70 the least of these

Now with the help of AA blacks get an additional 10 points.

With this formula, a black man would easily get the top-paying job with a score of 89 (unless another black man scored higher) where a white man with that score wouldn't even be considered.

This man would have scored at least 1 point below the dumbest white guy to score high enough to be considered for this job.

Without AA he would have been one of the smartest to be considered for the 80 job (honestly so too). He would have earned his job fairly and would prove the stereo types wrong by being one of the smartest in his department. (Because anybody smarter would be qualified for the better job)

However, thanks to AA he gets the better paying job. And so do many others down through the company this works on every tier of the pay scale, artificially bumping up scores.

The result is that in AA companies blacks don't have to be as smart or qualified to reach the same levels as whites at the same job. If they where as smart they would be bumped up to the next level, because they'd have all the points their equals did plus the bonus AA points.

I think this is one of the things that perpetuate the stereotype of blacks not being as smart. Because in our day to day life we run into people that through the wonders of AA have been promoted to a job that is over their head.

BTW- this is not a racist thing. It is simply logic. You could substitute any group for the whites or the black in this situation and it would play out the same. I never intended nor did I ever say that blacks aren't as smart as whites. Just that thanks to AA at any given level the one who receives the help of AA didn't have to be as qualified as his co-workers

AKIron · « **Reply #113 on:** January 19, 2003, 09:01:13 PM »

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Originally posted by Thrawn
The high schools they attend are generally have less quality of education because they don't have the financial resources that other schools have.

What does it really take for a "quality" education? I can think of nothing more than a reasonable teacher to student ratio, good books, and students that want to learn. What exactly is lacking that you're referring to?

I suggest that it isn't financial resources but attitude that is lacking and I blame it on both the parents and the school system. Can't do much about the parents but we might create an environment more conducive to learning. Private schools, schools whose future depends upon the success of their students, might turn the whole thing around, including the public school system.

Kanth · « **Reply #114 on:** January 19, 2003, 09:02:31 PM »

why are they more important that poor whites?

Enough to justify some sort of action based on race?

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Originally posted by Thrawn
Urchin, why are Black and Hispanic people are more likely to be poor in the U.S.?

NUKE · « **Reply #115 on:** January 19, 2003, 09:13:28 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Thrawn
Where does it say it is illegal to descriminate or give preferencial treatment based on race.

The 14th ammendment guarantee's equal protection under the law.

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All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

The Civil Rights Act of 1964 Title II and VII of which forbid racial discrimination in "public accommodations" and race and sex discrimination in employment, respectively.

Basically the 14th ammendment gave equal protection and treatment for all under the law.

Therefore, the Civil Rights Act would need to be applied to everyone equally.

Just wait till the Supreme Court rules to see what they say I guess.

Thrawn · « **Reply #116 on:** January 19, 2003, 09:15:18 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by AKIron
What does it really take for a "quality" education? I can think of nothing more than a reasonable teacher to student ratio, good books, and students that want to learn. What exactly is lacking that you're referring to?

Yeah, but inner city schools don't have the anywhere near the same teacher to student ratios or good books.

Kanth · « **Reply #117 on:** January 19, 2003, 09:39:05 PM »

Here comes Powell,

http://apnews.excite.com/article/20030120/D7OLLCE00.html

some good quotes on a later note:

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In an unusual Sunday night announcement, the White House said Bush's budget proposal for the upcoming fiscal year would increase funding by 5 percent for grants to historically black colleges, universities, graduate programs and Hispanic education institutions.

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A White House spokesman declined to say Sunday night why the black and Hispanic grant programs are acceptable, when the University of Michigan admission system is not.

Toad · « **Reply #118 on:** January 19, 2003, 10:09:35 PM »

What's a "good" student to teacher ratio?

I want to see if I had that advantage.. I'm thinking I didn't. Books? Old as the hills.

Can I get reparations?

Kanth · « **Reply #119 on:** January 19, 2003, 10:20:44 PM »

Okay but inner city schools doesn't say anything about race.

Any inner city kid should have access to any benefits given to their peers.

I'm still not seeing a race relationship here in inequities perpetrated by our system of education.

Quote

Originally posted by Thrawn
Yeah, but inner city schools don't have the anywhere near the same teacher to student ratios or good books.