Author Topic: Affirmative Action (Read 7585 times)

GRUNHERZ · « **Reply #75 on:** January 18, 2003, 03:15:11 PM »

The statistics prove Asians have the highest scores....

Thrawn · « **Reply #76 on:** January 18, 2003, 03:19:27 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
The statistics prove Asians have the highest scores....

Good point.

I recommend that an Affermative Action plan be instituted immediately, to insure a more balanced SAT test

GRUNHERZ · « **Reply #77 on:** January 18, 2003, 03:24:41 PM »

LOL of course you do... But what does that do to prove your racist sexist test?

I think its about what one could "educational culture". I know its just an anectote but I can vouch that I have never seen somebody get as much support and pressure to do well in school as my asiain friends and schoolmates, they value education and school performance so much - its a very admirable trait.

AKIron · « **Reply #78 on:** January 18, 2003, 03:26:48 PM »

Statistics prove nothing of the sort. It is your interpetation of those statistics that conclude bias, perhaps erroneously. There have been several other interpretations offered here as to the reason for disparity.

It's been many many years since I took an SAT or went to college but I bet they are updated on a recurring basis. Please tell me why we cant remove the bias and offer a fair playing field for everyone. Again, you libs are the ones claiming these tests are biased.

Regarding non-english speaking testees, I'm all for administering the test in their native language though I think they'll do better in an english speaking class room if they are fluent in english.

Quote

Originally posted by Thrawn
It's an anaolgy.

"You libs are the ones claiming bias, the onus is on you."

Incorrect, we have already proven a bias with MT's statistics.

Edit: Let me rephrase.

SAT tests are biased against non-white males. These statistics reflect this.

SAT

Total Test-takers: approxomately 1.2 million
Of whom approximately 54% are female

Verbal Math Total
American Indian or Alaskan Native 480 483 963
Asian, Asian Amer., or Pacific Is. 498 562 1060
Black or African American 434 426 860
Mexican American 453 460 913
Puerto Rican 452 447 899
Hispanic/Latino 461 466 927
White 526 528 1054
Other 511 514 1025

Males 509 531 1040
Females 502 496 998
ALL TEST-TAKERS 505 512 1017

Thrawn · « **Reply #79 on:** January 18, 2003, 03:41:27 PM »

Here's an example of some bias in SATs. And why the stats might be as they are.

"It is widely believed in many academic circles that black test takers do poorly compared to whites on the analogies section of the SAT verbal test. To our knowledge the Educational Testing Service has never released data on racial differences on particular sections of the SAT. But it is clear that over the years the analogies section has contained some cultural, if not racial, biases.

Consider the following SAT test question, an analogy that asks the student to pick the answer that best resembles the relationship between the two words in the question:

RUNNER:MARATHON
(A) envoy:embassy
(B) martyr:massacre
(C) oarsman:regatta
(D) referee:tournament
(E) horse:stable

The correct answer is (C) oarsman:regatta. For many of our readers this SAT question is a rather easy one, but maybe not so easy for an inner-city black student who has never even seen a boat, much less heard of a regatta.

In recent years The College Board has mounted painstaking efforts to ensure that culturally biased questions don't sneak into the SAT. But many observers believe that the reasoning involved in solving questions on this section of the SAT is foreign to anything that millions of black students have experienced in life or have been taught in school.

Also, many in the testing community believe that students who are coached on analogies are more likely to perform better on these types of questions which generally are not part of the standard high school curriculum. In short, test coaching may pay off more on the analogy section of the SAT than on other portions of the SAT which are normally taught as part of the high school curriculum.

Therefore, it is likely that blacks have performed more poorly than whites on the analogy section of the SAT because of financial barriers. Blacks are far less likely to have access to SAT coaching classes which can have a price tag of $800 or more. The elimination of the analogies section could therefore produce some reduction in the overall racial scoring gap on the SAT. "

mietla · « **Reply #80 on:** January 18, 2003, 03:53:54 PM »

where is Miko?

Gunthr · « **Reply #81 on:** January 18, 2003, 04:05:39 PM »

Quote

Here's an example of some bias in SATs. And why the stats might be as they are. "It is widely believed in many academic circles that black test takers do poorly compared to whites on the analogies section of the SAT verbal test. To our knowledge the Educational Testing Service has never released data on racial differences on particular sections of the SAT. But it is clear that over the years the analogies section has contained some cultural, if not racial, biases.

Consider the following SAT test question, an analogy that asks the student to pick the answer that best resembles the relationship between the two words in the question:

RUNNER:MARATHON
(A) envoy:embassy
(B) martyr:massacre
(C) oarsman:regatta
(D) referee:tournament
(E) horse:stable

The correct answer is (C) oarsman:regatta. For many of our readers this SAT question is a rather easy one, but maybe not so easy for an inner-city black student who has never even seen a boat, much less heard of a regatta.

In recent years The College Board has mounted painstaking efforts to ensure that culturally biased questions don't sneak into the SAT. But many observers believe that the reasoning involved in solving questions on this section of the SAT is foreign to anything that millions of black students have experienced in life or have been taught in school.

Also, many in the testing community believe that students who are coached on analogies are more likely to perform better on these types of questions which generally are not part of the standard high school curriculum. In short, test coaching may pay off more on the analogy section of the SAT than on other portions of the SAT which are normally taught as part of the high school curriculum.

Therefore, it is likely that blacks have performed more poorly than whites on the analogy section of the SAT because of financial barriers. Blacks are far less likely to have access to SAT coaching classes which can have a price tag of $800 or more. The elimination of the analogies section could therefore produce some reduction in the overall racial scoring gap on the SAT

- Thrawn
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thrawn, there is no doubt, the oarsman/regatta question is a roadkill question. (Certainly no longer in use) I got the wrong answer too. Fire the lib "education specialist" who came up with it, but don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

American society does NOT have an obligation or responsibility to set aside those persons who have the low scores on the SAT, and artificially raise them.

Do you libs really want government to make laws that everyone will score the same on SATs? Where will it stop?

Don't you care what kind of society we will end up with?

Edit: Thrawn, I forgot you do not live in the USA. We can kick the issue back and forth, but I'm downrating your opinion to a degree because you don't have to live with the ultimate result of your stand on this.

Thrawn · « **Reply #82 on:** January 18, 2003, 04:13:44 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Gunthr
[BAmerican society does NOT have an obligation or responsibility to set aside those persons who have the low scores on the SAT, and artificially raise them.[/B]

Nah, I just think it would be, good if the questions had a little cultural bias a possible.

midnight Target · « **Reply #83 on:** January 18, 2003, 07:01:29 PM »

I see that Thrawn has picked up the ball and is doing fine here.

I apologize for the 'pat on the back' comment Gunthr. It was uncalled for.

I think we are all missing the forest for the trees here. One of the reasons AA has been necessary is because past prejudices and lack of opportunity has placed certain groups at a disadvantage. I think that that is an unassailable point.

The rest of the story has to do with our Country's will to make it right. Simply ending "Institutional" racism isn't enough. The rules have been stacked against certain minorities for too long to ensure that access will suddenly occurr. The test bias is just a small example of the bigger picture. Here is my take on the subject in a nutshell:

1. Certain groups have not had equal access to the American dream.
2. They should
3. We should do as much as possible to correct that situation.

capt. apathy · « **Reply #84 on:** January 18, 2003, 09:04:49 PM »

in responce to the sample 'racialy biased question'.
I don't think the iner-city black kid would have any harder a time with that question than the inner-city white kid living next door to him.

it would seem that income is more of a direct coralation than race. if the tests are biased it's probably more financial than racial.

and here's the problem with AA. poor whites and poor blacks have problems gaining access to the american dream. but while the poor blacks have AA to try and help 'level the playing feild' poor whites have all the same disadvantages plus legal discrimanation of AA on top of that.

anytime someone wants to point out racial dis-advatage the use as examples some rich white kid and some poor black kid.

the fact is that a rich black atorneys kid has alot more advatages than my working class white children. in adition to the other advatages they get from gov't and private funds.

many of the advatages are blantantly racist but it's 'ok' because they help blacks.

I would be labled racist (and rightly so) if I was to start the 'united white-boy college fund' but to have a fund only available is fine.

what about the NAAWP (probably would get labled as a off-shoot of the clan)

how can anybody stand there with a straight face and say a behavior is moraly reprehensible (discrimanation) then turn around and do it yourself and say it's justified because the color of the skin of the victim is different? all while flying your 'fight racism' bumper sticker.

BTW-nobody has yet to show me an example of a racially biased question.
and how did they bias the math? the score difference seems to be even greater there.

Gunthr · « **Reply #85 on:** January 18, 2003, 09:17:03 PM »

Quote

I see that Thrawn has picked up the ball and is doing fine here.

Well... I certainly disagree. Thrawns argument is built on clay. I do like Thrawn, though. I welcome his viewpoint. But his points are as flawed as yours.

I accept your apology MT. What you have done, I am guilty of many times over...

lazs2 · « **Reply #86 on:** January 19, 2003, 09:54:02 AM »

thrawn... I have never been to a "regatta" or talked with an "oarsman" to my knowledge... but I do have a TV and I read everything (even the crap at the Dr's office and the dentist) I have a radio and I talk to people.

If you wish to insulate yourself from the rest of society then you will probly not only do poorly in the test but... You will no doubt have difficulty in passing any of the classes that are offered. If you are so insulated that you can't use a process of elimination to aid you in testing then probly you don't have any job skills worth having.

How do those pesky little asian fellows figure out the "regatta" thing? What about them white kids in arizona and kansas?

When I cross A bridge... I want to know that the guy who was the engineer had good math skills. I really don't care if he is good at basketball or tennis or even.... boating.

If the problem is in the public schools then fix em... get rid of em if they can't do the job. Why do we not have merit based public schools that prepare kids for higher education? Garbage in garbage out.
lazs

midnight Target · « **Reply #87 on:** January 19, 2003, 01:19:11 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Gunthr
But his points are as flawed as yours.

Like I said, he's doing fine.

Thrawn · « **Reply #88 on:** January 19, 2003, 03:11:16 PM »

Can someone please give me an alternate hypothesis as to why, blacks score less then whites on SATs?

Lazs, I'm not sure a middle aged, white guy that lives in the country knowing what a regata has any reflection on whether a black teenager in the inner city does.

I'd be interested to know whether black students score less then white students in the same economic demographic.

Gunthr · « **Reply #89 on:** January 19, 2003, 03:31:10 PM »

Quote

Like I said, he's doing fine.

- MT

MT, you are an expert in sound bytes that don't mean anything. Would you care to:

A. Be more specific.
B. Answer my post that you previously chose not to answer.

Here: "You obviously believe that because whites live in a racist society, and they have benefitted from racism, there is a debt that is owed to black people that should be paid by all of us currently living Americans. Admit it." - Gunthr

Or, as I suspect, will you continue to run when your beliefs are challanged, or ask others to take your ineffectual part?
I'm on to you now.