back to the basics B&Z 101

[funked]

Cit I apologize.  I didn't mean this to be me vs. you, or any slight on your personal skill - I know you are a tough opponent regardless of altitude.

[RangerBob]

Your point is well taken Citabria and makes good pilot sense. I enjoy reading your posts, especially when they provide an insight into proper tactics.

Yes some people enjoy furballing, and I'm sure you know this well. After all it is only a simulation, but your point is well taken that B&Z tactics will bring you home more often in spite of the level of ability of the pilot. If you prefer furballing and don't like waisting time climbing, then by all means enjoy yourself.

I find your analysis quite instructive. Please don't hesitate to post more of them.

Ranger Bob

[jmccaul]

In WW2 people flew in formations and when 2 met they fought otherwise known as furballed. The difference is there was not asteady stream of individual planes resupplying the furball. If an other formation joined the furballed it would tip the odds and shorten the furball. In AH these furballs last for ages and usually don't deplete in numbers (people die, replane and dive back in) as such your chances of survival if you stay in the furball are tiny in the arena.

Read Bob Tuck's biography flying safley to him meant bringing a parachute.      

[Hristo]

Meet Tukiyo and you will see what ACM skill is.

This guy always comes low and hopes someone bounces him. Then the BnZer dies. Simply, Tukiyo has the skill to do it.

I have never seen Tukiyo fight from advantage, not even from co-E. All the times he was at disadvantage.

On the other side of the universe is Ypsilon. How many times did he fight from disadvantage ?

Now what is the flying skill ? Is it ACM ? Is it killing and staying alive ? Is it the timing to join the vulchfest ? Is it the ability to choose your fights ? Does evaluating someone's E rank so low in the skill department ?

Tukiyo would rank on top of ACM skill department, IMO. This seems to be the criteria how most of us here value someone's skill. But, would such a pilot live through a war ?

Ypsilon flies the way some poeple find annoying. Why ? Because they don't have the chance to fight back.

So, who is better. The superior furballer that lived thru many fights or the novice BnZer who just shot him down in his C-Hog ?

[StSanta]

Heh, in tour 3 (I think), I ran into a Spitfire, co alt. Ended up dying in a HO, and was severly pissed off about whoever this tukiyo guy was.

So I reupped, still in 109G10. Came in higher, saw him low.

We had a *long* fight, and then I made a mistake, he got on my 6 and I extended. Low on fuel, I decided to RTB wondering just who the hell this guy was.

<S!> tukiyo

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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
"If you died a stones throw from your wingie; you did no wrong". - Hangtime

[By-Tor]

 Just a punt on a very informative and insightfull read into the minds of some of the best in AH.Wish I came across threads like this more often.Thx for the read guys.

     By-Tor

[Jigster]

 

Originally posted by Hristo:
Meet Tukiyo and you will see what ACM skill is.

This guy always comes low and hopes someone bounces him. Then the BnZer dies. Simply, Tukiyo has the skill to do it.

I have never seen Tukiyo fight from advantage, not even from co-E. All the times he was at disadvantage.

On the other side of the universe is Ypsilon. How many times did he fight from disadvantage ?

Now what is the flying skill ? Is it ACM ? Is it killing and staying alive ? Is it the timing to join the vulchfest ? Is it the ability to choose your fights ? Does evaluating someone's E rank so low in the skill department ?

Tukiyo would rank on top of ACM skill department, IMO. This seems to be the criteria how most of us here value someone's skill. But, would such a pilot live through a war ?

Ypsilon flies the way some poeple find annoying. Why ? Because they don't have the chance to fight back.

So, who is better. The superior furballer that lived thru many fights or the novice BnZer who just shot him down in his C-Hog ?

I personally like to fight from a defensive point of view. Simply put I can't do jack from the offensive. I die alot but it sure is satisfying smacking someone off their perch  


Ugh I remember the ol' days in AW4W when I would putter around at 5k in the P-51 or Hog...or skimming the deck in the A-26. And thanks to that frickin game I'm one of the worst scenario pilots to ever try  

- Jig

[Duckwing6]

Yea the usual tactics don't work as nicely as they did in the previous version -> e.g. less E bleed means you have to "work" the target a lot longer to get it to an E level low enough to kill it (especially with cal 50s or other MGs..)

BUT

The manouver i was missig most since i left AW . the good 'ol Rope is BACK  

A lot of planes perform a lOT better in the vertical now and a LOT of people are now more willing to try and follow your zoom.

DW6

[Fariz]

 

Originally posted by Hristo:
Meet Tukiyo and you will see what ACM skill is.

This guy always comes low and hopes someone bounces him. Then the BnZer dies. Simply, Tukiyo has the skill to do it.

Great pilot. He once hurt my pride badly killing me from disadvantage 3 times consecutive. I just puzzled how he managed to keep e so brilliantly. Even when I viewed the film. Then I found the right tactics and killed him 7 times this day, but he always was in disadvantage or level, and fights were really hard. Also guy has a good personality, very shy so not many rank him as a superior pilot, while he is really. He and Mitsu are the best AH spit IX pilots for sure.

Fariz

[Hristo]

But the real question is why do we play this sim. Because we want to have fun ? To hone our ACM ? To live in our virtual sky ?

Someone recently gave best definition of this issue. It is when furballer meets score hunter. Some people take off and join the furball, never even bothering about landing their sorties. On the other hand, some fly to land their kills.

The problem arises when furballer meets the other guy. Calling him a coward just because he wants to fly like they used in WW2 ?

I remember few of my fights against Tukiyo. I was always in G-10. At first I got shot down when I went aggressive on his 6. After that I just got more careful and lagged behind until we were both low and slow. Or I always had the getaway option. He never shot me down again. With pre-1.04 FM even the Spit could do little from bad position. At other occasions he was always outnumbered or at disadvantage. I even waited for him to engage someone else, only to drop onhim when he wasn't watching.

Tukiyo was relying only on his ACM skills. And they are impressive. Only he could come into enemy territory all alone at 2-3k.

Ypsilon ? On every occassion I met him, he was higher than me. Even if I was at 25k, he came higher. And yes, I have never seen any ACM at all from him. Only endless loops. Simply, he refused to fight from disadvantage or even co-E.

So, who is better ? Tukiyo with his ACM or Ypsilon with his historical style ? I am not so sure. Even the best furballers with superior ACM die if you play dirty. Come with alt advantage or numbers to overcome their SA and that's it.

Some would say BnZers fly boringly. But who are we to tell them what is boring to them ? Is maybe our ego hurt when a BnZer shoots us down without giving us a chance to fight back ?

Some people can do amazine things in their planes. They are respected as ACM kings. Other have invested in different type of flying (more historical, IMO).

Being able to kill and live is a skill too. Sometimes much harder than just joining the furball and pulling on the stick.

[Hristo]

I remember when I learnd it the hard way.

Few months ago I was at 15k in Fw 190A-8. P 51D came at 20k+. Instead of running for friendlies, I decided to give him a fight.

We went around for minutes and finally ended near the deck. At one moment his zoom was a little bit short and I was on his 6, ready to spray him with cannons. At that moment I was proud of myself for beating high P 51 in low 190. But just then a Niki dove on me and sprayed my 190 out of the sky.

Well, no more Mr. Niki. Now I will come at advantage and nail that bastard. Without the chance for you to fight back. And even if you get behind me, I will point my nose down and run away.

I won't give you a fair fight. Ever.

[Maniac]

It is alot harder to rope now a days, atleast in the p51.

I dont know if its the Combat Trim that helps the chasing plane to not to stall out when he follows in the zoom, or if its the new FM (e retention).


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AH : Maniac
WB : -nr-1-

[This message has been edited by Maniac (edited 09-12-2000).]

[Citabria]

yup duckwng6 the rope a dope is back big time!  

it is so easy now to just point the nose up and try to zoom after the bandit even though you know what will happen if you do.

1v1 in equal turning planes if you stay in the horizontal at hi speed using just enough turn to keep him from getting his guns on target then barrel roll over onto his 6 as he breaks off you can actually rope the b&zer into bleeding just enough E to allow you to follow him up as he passes you and gun him to bits  

[Fariz]

 

Originally posted by Hristo:
But the real question is why do we play this sim. Because we want to have fun ? To hone our ACM ? To live in our virtual sky ?

Answer is in you question -- WE play it for everything you mentioned + more. This WE contain lot of different people. I personally try to respect every single way of flying, which I met. I fly for scores, someone flyes for furballs, ACM, whatever, everything is ok with me. What I do not like when someone starts offending everyone who flies not the way he does.

Fariz.

[Ice]

Citabria....


Last night you tried to rope me in ur F4u...I almost judged ur E correctly but we both fell off at d500....then you killed me.

Please don't do that anymore

Good Kill<S>

I'm Out!