back to the basics B&Z 101

[Citabria]

I had 1.03 more or less mastered
now 1.04 is here and in my first day of playing it I have had a lot of fun and a lot of frustration.

the frustration part is my own fault though.
at the beggining of tour 8 I was determined to fly to live and did so using the basic formula of:

altitude
attack with the advantage
do not chase a diving plane (unless you dont mind dying to his friends)  
extend to safety horizontally or vertically as required
don't linger in one place ever
don't push a bad situation

and most importantly:
don't rely on your own skill or lack there of to save you from tactical or ACM mistakes because the other guy may be just as good or better

in short use correct tactics and stay true to them and you can succesfully engage shoot down bad guys and get out of dodge alive

I did this starting the day tour 8 began and proceeded to rack up 41 kills to 0 deaths before 1.04 came out
after 1.04 I died my first death in the great warp fest during the download insanity and since i always fly to live till i die my first death then after that I jabo and fly to furball this is what I did.

bad timing  


after doing a good bit of killing and a bit more dying furballing became frustrating because I was relying on 1.04's new level of e retention to save me in situations that would get me killed in earlier versions. sometimes it did sometimes it didn't since the attacker has the same e retention boost and prop drag and drag from sideslips no longer has any noticeable effect on speed so overshoots and scissors are not an option in the P-38L and many others.

said another way the game is different now but the rules of air combat have not changed.


I've found in 1.04 if you play it cool and b&z with enough cunning you will be landing 5 kill sorties easily but only if you recognize the bandits e state correctly

I'm returning to these tactics for a while since im not so great at turning and burning in the 1.04 p-38  and I hate dying (my appologies for my temper   )



[This message has been edited by Citabria (edited 09-09-2000).]

[AKDejaVu]

I agree Cit.  The new model weeds out the real BnZ guys and the pozers.  No more turning to try to track someone.  You now have to get in and get out with no messing about.  That seems the way it should be.

I kinda wonder about the e retention in the verticle tho.

AKDejaVu

[Ice]

Put Simply....dying sucks!

I can relate....good luck

I'm Out!-=

[StSanta]

Agree about the scissors bit.

I hope this is fixed somehow; weren't these machines able to out scissor enemies?

I fly largely as I did before, but turn a bit more, and do a few more immelman's. It is possible to "stay fast, stay hi, stay outta trouble" when you're lone wolfing, but if you have a wingie, and an endless stream of inb enemy, it's more problematic, as you'll often have to go into a situation that is less than ideal to help yer wingie out, and the same goes for him. Sooner or later, a hi con will come in and drop on you on your wingie, forcing ya to go on the defensive and possibly trade altitude for speed a lot during maneuvering.

------------------
StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
"If you died a stones throw from your wingie; you did no wrong". - Hangtime

[Citabria]

just practiced these Boom and zoom tactics in the MA and racked up a 15 kill sortie by reloading a few times but I forgot one other important rule I fly by...

AVOID HEAD ONS when the other guy has a good shot or colision is immenent!

hehe ended my 15 kill streak that way by accidently ramming a spit standing on its bellybutton  

[funked]

I think some people are going to learn the hard way that altitude does not equal skill.  

[StSanta]

Well said funked.

I b&z from 15k and under in my a8  .



------------------
StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
"If you died a stones throw from your wingie; you did no wrong". - Hangtime

[RAM]

 

Originally posted by StSanta:


I b&z from 15k and under in my a8   .

Always did it in earlier versions (yeah, the so tough ones  ). I guess that now it will be a bit easier. 190 is useless over 18K.

BTW got a H2H time yesterday night with some fellow spanish pilots, they came from Wb.

HTC, seems you soon will have a lot of Ex-WBers here  .

I, by my part, had a bunch of fun. But still have to figure how to readapt my stile of flying (mostly in the defensive, as I based it in overshoot tactics that dont work any more).

[Vermillion]

Santa, realistically the P-38 (any varient including the late J's and the L) should be one of the worst "scissors" planes of the entire war.  Thats what you get when you have very wide wings with engines mounted off the axis of roll.

If anything it the P-38 in AH is  still too good in that regards.

I think currently its sustained roll rate is probably right on. But its initial roll rate seems too high, since it doesn't exhibit the inertia, or "hesitation" (and yes thats spelled wrong) that the pilots described. Of course given the way the FM works, it might be impossible to get both right.

On the sideslip issue.

I think most people thought the amount of E that was burned in slips was way too high, and there were alot of discussions on it, including some very good aeronautics from wells and others.

But we lived with it for a long time, and we got use to it. So it felt "right" to us  

I haven't done any tests, but my guess would be that the current version is much closer to realism.

And to be honest, I think its mostly an issue of "feel" to us, since I am still using slips to control my speeds in the Arena. It still works, its just not as effective.

Now on the rest of the changes to 1.04, I will hold my tongue   I will say that this version is MUCH easier to fly than the old one. But as to which is more realistic?

*shrugs*

------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure

[StSanta]

Verm

Sorry, was referring to the one nine tee, not the p38 when speaking about scissors.

Regarding slip; try this experiment: 1k agl, 230kts, on finals. Keep plane steady in +-0 climb/sink, reduce throttle to minimum. Notice time it takes to reduce speed to 200.

Do the same, with full right rudder.

I got no real difference in my A8.

------------------
StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
"If you died a stones throw from your wingie; you did no wrong". - Hangtime

[Citabria]

um

you guys can pretend your toejam hot and all and can kill anything but the intent of this thread is not how to be MR "I fly at low altitude in a 190 against the odds and kill everything"

the simple fact remains that by using proper tactics even the average pilot will have great success and survivability by not relying on their superior or inferior flying skill.

this whole discussion is aimed towards those that don't enjoy getting shot down and have the patience to fly using the necessary restraint not to put themselves in a bad situation.

sure furballing is fun but they didn't fly like that in ww2...

not the guys that lived through it anyway.

[funked]

"sure furballing is fun but they didn't fly like that in ww2..."

Baloney.

Didn't mean to pee on your thread though.

Just don't confuse "having the patience" with "being willing to waste time climbing".  

[This message has been edited by funked (edited 09-10-2000).]

[Citabria]

"not the guys that lived anyway"

the dead ones furballed funked

[funked]

Negative.  Plenty of guys who lived tell stories of furballing.  Many many pilots rarely saw the enemy.  When they did see him, they flew like their hair was on fire.

[Citabria]

I'm not gonna get in a pissing contest with you funked I have nothing to prove to myself or anyone else about my own personal skill or lack thereof and I don't confuse skill with altitude or flying smart or whatever you want to call it.


what I am saying is boom and zoom tactics still work and they will bring you back to base in one piece much more often than turning and burning will even with the new flight model.