Author Topic: Toad, airline pilot question for you. (Read 688 times)

GRUNHERZ · « **on:** January 19, 2003, 09:12:41 AM »

Was watching a show last night about 747s and they said that on the -400 the flight crew was reduced from 3 to 2, with the flight engineer position being eliminated. What happened with the excess flight engineers no longer needed on new planes, were they pilots as well, could they retrain to be pilots or copilots? What did the unions say about this?

Toad · « **Reply #1 on:** January 19, 2003, 10:17:30 AM »

At almost every airline, Flight Engineers are required to be rated pilots. The way it works is that you are hired as a pilot and must meet those requirements. However, in the old 3 pilot days, the lowest paying jobs generally the Flight Engineer jobs. So, new hires and junior pilots ending up filling those seats under the seniority bid system. (People tend to bid the highest paying equipment (job) they can hold. Not always, but usually.)

So, as a 3 pilot fleet is replaced by newer two pilot aircraft, the Flight Engineers have their bid "canceled" and they rebid other equipment.

New equipment doesn't arrive in a lump. It trickles in usually. It took my airline years to phase out its L-1011 three pilot aircraft and replace them with 2 pilot 767's.

So, it really isn't that big a deal given that you have retirements, medical retirements and such making new bids available all the time. Plus, if the airline is expanding... getting more total planes... the excess is easily absorbed.

Now, if you just got rid of aircraft, you could possibly end up with surplus pilots. If it got bad enough, they "furlough" the junior pilots. Basically, release them from all obligations with no pay or benefits but with "callback" rights if the airline expands again.

The Unions supported the switch; it was a matter of a negotiation in some areas (duty hours) but it went without a hitch just about everywhere.

GRUNHERZ · « **Reply #2 on:** January 19, 2003, 10:30:17 AM »

Thanks for the good explaination!

What did the flight engineers do, was it like on B29s for example where they took care of engines settings and now this is done by computers etc?

Toad · « **Reply #3 on:** January 19, 2003, 11:34:46 AM »

No, at my company the FE's did not touch the throttles at all. Some airlines had a different policy.

Generally FE's on the ground were responsible for the "walk around" inspection, ensuring all fluids quantities were correct (engine oil, etc.) and interior aircraft inspection (O2 bottles, fire extinguishers).

Inflight they monitored and adjusted the electrical, hydraulic, fuel, pressurization and air condidtioning and secondary engine systems/indications. They maintained the FAA required contact with Company dispatchers, monitored weather enroute and at destination and computed all performance data (max cruise altitudes, approach speeds). Secondarily, they dealt with passenger problems in the back and did minor "fix it" stuff for the Flight Attendants... like finding the circuit breaker for the galley coffee maker and resetting it.

In event of an inflight emergency, the FE read the checklist and made sure everything was accomplished in the proper order and double checked switch movment as the steps were followed. Many of the E-checklists consisted of mostly FE duties... like manual lowering of the gear on a 727.

Then there's the fact that they also provided "another set of eyes" in the cockpit. Always handy in high density traffic areas and always welcome during the really nasty instrument approaches.

Now without them on board, some things have been automated and some things have become MUCH more difficult. Some things just don't get done so they reclassified them as "unnecessary". IMO, in the really serious inflight emergencies in bad weather the FE is missed. But that's a rare situation and the bean counters accept the risk... because nothing happens to them.

But hey, getting rid of the FE's saved about $5 a ticket....... maybe not quite that much.

GRUNHERZ · « **Reply #4 on:** January 19, 2003, 12:21:02 PM »

Thanks again.

Toad · « **Reply #5 on:** January 19, 2003, 02:58:33 PM »

Just curious, how'd you come to these questions?

Doing a biz management paper on those bad old unions featherbedding?

GRUNHERZ · « **Reply #6 on:** January 19, 2003, 04:24:24 PM »

Discovery wings or one of those channels had a show about the 747 last night and they discussed how the plane evolved. One of them was how -400 got a new cockpit with no flight engineer and I assumed that wasnt just changing on the 747 so I got curious what happend with those people and what opportunities they had after the change - ie did the they become pilots or whaterver. I also wondered what the unions thought of this since they are of course very protectionist about job losses.

Now I will use this inside info to destroy all the unions and buy myself sharks with laser beams on their heads. Muhhhahhhaa.

Basically I was curious what happend to those guys.

Toad · « **Reply #7 on:** January 19, 2003, 04:36:10 PM »

Well, basically nothing happened to them. The transition was so gradual and the industry at that point was mostly expanding.

The company just put out a "system bid" that showed where they needed pilots and where they didn't (cancellations) and people "bid off" the equipment that was leaving and into new seats on aircraft categories that had vacancies. It was pretty painless.

I was already a F/O when it started in earnest, so it did not affect me at all.

There were some "ROPES", Retired Old Pilot Engineers, that were above age 60 and flying as Flight Engineers (no age restriction) that got squeezed out eventually. But by the time that happened most were in their upper 60's and ready to quit I think.

Very few folks in any event.

GRUNHERZ · « **Reply #8 on:** January 19, 2003, 06:21:37 PM »

What do you think of the forced retirement age?

Toad · « **Reply #9 on:** January 19, 2003, 06:36:01 PM »

Personally, I'm in favor of it.

Two reasons:

1. I've flown with age 60 guys a lot on the International. Like all groups, it's a bell curve just like the rest of the population. Some are sharp as ever, some are "average" and some are clearly slowing down. So, you can devise a system to "test" or you can just have an agreed upon retirement age. The retirement age was agreed upon a long time ago. I don't buy the "losing valuable" experience thing, either. By the time you get to age sixty, just about everyone in that condition has at least 30 years in the job. So the guy taking his place, the guy "moving up a number" has... 29 years. Big deal. The only "inexperienced" pilots are the new hires and to get hired you probably have to have 3000+ hours of multimotor time now or 1500+ of fighter time minimum. Not rookies by a long shot and those guys will get 10 years of further seasoning in the right seat before they get their fourth stripe.

2. Every single one of the guys trying to go on past age 60 was overjoyed when he was younger and somebody retired by age. It meant they "moved up a number" on the list and more seniority means better pay, choice of vacation dates, choice of trips to fly. So they were all happy to see a guy retire. Heck, some of them kept lists in their flight kits and gleefully scratched guys off, keeping assiduous track of their rising status.

Now it's their turn and suprise, suprise... it's just not fair!

My view is "a deal's a deal". We all knew about age 60 when we hired on and we were all glad to "move up a number". Time to be a man about it and move on like the rest of 'em did.

beet1e · « **Reply #10 on:** January 19, 2003, 07:31:37 PM »

Mr. Toad - interesting material here.

Have you ever read "The Unfriendly Skies"? The anonymous airline captain reveals all... hehe - it could have been you who wrote it yourself - lol. In case it wasn't, there's a piece in there about what happens when there's a major air disaster in which the flight crew is lost. The author of the book states that morbid though it was, he would wonder to himself: "what was the captain's seniority number?"... What do you think of that?

Still waiting for you to check your logbooks for Friday 30th May, 1997 and the 8th of June following.

Toad · « **Reply #11 on:** January 19, 2003, 08:28:48 PM »

It's so common there's a joke about it.

Just before V1, the Captain clutches his chest and keels over in the seat. What do you, as F/O, do?

Take control of the airplane, abort the takeoff and bring the aircraft safely to a stop. Take your seniority list out of your flight kit and cross the Captain off the list and update your number by minus one as you tell the Flight Engineer to "get that dead SOB out of my seat!" Call "checklist complete".

Seniority is everything. It's that simple.

Although no one's as coldblooded as this joke would have one believe or Mr. Unfriendly Skies would propose.

At least I hope not. Everybody is somebodies' Daddy ya know.

Toad · « **Reply #12 on:** January 19, 2003, 11:32:54 PM »

BTW, Beetle... Here's your anonymous author.

Rodney Stich

Seems he has some......... issues....... with the Feds.

There's a bit of a "black helicopter" overtone to his bio here... and it sounds like he wrote it himself.

Ya just never know.

Dinger · « **Reply #13 on:** January 20, 2003, 08:32:57 AM »

http://aviation-safety.net/cvr/cvr_ja46e.shtml
-3 is the flight engineer, who gets to say things like:

Quote

1245:30 {24:14}
CAM-3 thanks @, buddy. --- I don't care how much, you, I, how many beers I owe you in the past. this one I'm going to pay off on. OK?

midnight Target · « **Reply #14 on:** January 20, 2003, 11:27:43 AM »

Toad,

I flew Frontier Express the other day, a "Canadair" Shuttle. First I've ever heard of this jet. You know anything about it?