What went wrong?

[Nash]

So what went wrong here? I'd like to step back from the specifics of yesterday's event and try to figure out how a simple duel (really) got bent out of shape like this. I think it's important for a couple of reasons. First, I'd like to see more of these Rumbles. Secondly, I don't want to see people leaving AH in disgust after they are held.

Now the reality is, these things involve personalities. Strong personalities. Our community is practically *based* on competition, so this should be expected. Perhaps we take a lesson from Doktor Gonzo and consider Hate as healthy, good and something to strive for. I mean, animosity in a duel sure makes things interesting (McEnroe was always more entertaining than Conners). Perhaps the 2 sides (I'll use Allied vs Luftwaffe) should dig in even deeper and nurture the bitter feelings, the effect of which will no doubt split the two camps even farther apart, while bringing the the people on each side closer together under a common cause. The LW and Allies as bitter enemies. This is realism, no? Occasionally they meet in the SEA to duke it out... and I can only imagine the intensity of fights like these.

But nah... That aint too realistic is it? We're adults here, and I can't imagine anyone could keep up that charade for very long. Well ok, a few people maybe   .

I think a distinction should be made from yesterday's 'duel' and the common fights in the MA or scenarios. This was never a recreation of some historic battle. Yes, this was a "We are better than you and we intend to prove it". Nothing more and much the same as two teams on a football field (as Toad said). There was no *question* in my mind that egos were going to get bruised. That's life. The more a fight means to you, the more it hurts when ya lose. And the more pride ya feel if ya win. That's what makes competition meaningful, intense, stressful... and if ya enjoy this kinda thing... FUN.

I guess my problem is this:

Can we not handle intense competition? Are we doomed to whinning, bragging, finger pointing, lashing out, name calling? Do we hold ourselves strictly to gentlemanly 'recreations' because our thin skin just cannot tolerate tolerate a loss, or our ego demands we make sure to have the losing side feel even worse about it? Is it unrealistic to expect any modicum of grace and dignity? The ability to salute your opponent  no matter what went on... losing a battle but keeping your eye on the war.

More questions....

Is that it? Should we just tank the whole idea of large duels? What went wrong, and how should this be done (if ever) again?

[Ripsnort]

The society creates an ego because the ego can be controlled and manipulated. The self can
    never be controlled or manipulated. Nobody has ever heard of the society controlling a self - not
    possible.

          And the child needs a center; the child is completely unaware of his own center. The society
    gives him a center and the child is by and by convinced that this is his center, the ego that society
    gives.

          A child comes back to his home - if he has come first in his class, the whole family is happy.
    You hug and kiss him, and you take the child on your shoulders and dance and you say, "What a
    beautiful child! You are a pride to us." You are giving him an ego, a subtle ego. And if the child
    comes home dejected, unsuccessful, a failure - he couldn't pass, or he has just been on the back
    bench - then nobody appreciates him and the child feels rejected. He will try harder next time,
    because the center feels shaken.

          Ego is always shaken, always in search of food, that somebody should appreciate it. That's why
    you continuously ask for attention.(not YOU, but US in whole)

There, you asked whats wrong, I showed you how it comes about the long way...now we see end results in a virtual game.    


[This message has been edited by Ripsnort, who had a few too many psyche classes, more  than he needed for his degree! (edited 07-24-2000).]



[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 07-24-2000).]

[Lephturn]

My experience is that large duels have a tendency to cause issues like this.  The potential for problems goes up exponentially with the number of folks engaged in it.

Ideally we would have some kind of tool that will let us absolutely control the number of folks in the air, their altitude, location, plane type, etc.  If you do it under the current system, you have to have very specific ROEs and you must have some practice runs to work the bugs out first.  The refs need to have a practice run too don't forget.  If we had run a "dress rehearsal", maybe some of this could have been avoided.

If we had something that we could use to press a button that would pop 10 v 10 guys into the air at D9, facing each other, at 200 IAS and 15k feet for example, we could do better.  Then you could just set it up, hit the GO button, and the last team with a guy flying wins.  No complex rules or refs needed.

If you try to do something like "everybody stays in a sector" for example, you end up with folks running the edge, and people claiming others are outside.  It will be easier in AH since we have the radar dots, since a ref could see them I guess...  Once again, it is likely possible, but we'd need to have a few practice runs to work the bugs out and make sure it's workeable.

Another issue is the merge.  The ONLY way to do this without having lots of issues is to run it "anything goes".  Anything else is too complex and will just never work right in my opinion.

I think we CAN run large duels like this, but we need to run a few dress-rehearsals first to work the bugs out of the system.  The rumble was great in that we tried out a ROE and found out what the problems are.  Next time we can practice a bit more first and refine our ROE.

Maybe someday HTC can get us a tool to help out as I outlined above, but until then we need to practice a few times before we try something like this that "counts".  

------------------
Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs  http://www.flyingpigs.com


"My P-47 is a pretty good ship, she took a round coming 'cross the Channel last trip.
Just thinking 'bout my baby and lettin' her rip, always got me through so far."
 - Steve Earl

[Yeager]

This is a pretty good example showing how things can and will go bad in any duel.

For the CMs it illustrates how vital (and difficult) the role of arena set-up, interpreting the ROE, and refereeing can be.

I suggest calling this duel a functional test.  Having found the test somewhat dysfunctional, I recommend another run (or several) to get everyone up to speed.

Plus a little speech by the refs just before the duel occurs imploring everyone to "hit above the belt, no kicking and have fun...now LETS GET IT ON"  type thing.

Yeager


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[This message has been edited by Yeager (edited 07-24-2000).]

[Ripsnort]

 

[popeye]

CM tools and the terrain editor should go a long way toward controlling the ROE.

I can imagine a flat sea level "Dueling Terrain" with two 15k mountain fields about 20 miles apart, in the center of a ring of 40k cliffs, no ack anywhere, and enough radar to cover the whole area.  Set the minimum radar altitude to 20 feet, stage the opposing sides on the mountain fields, and say "GO".  Last team with a blip on radar wins.

The AH Texas Caged Death Match  

popeye

[Vermillion]

Ohhhh Popeye, I like that idea  

------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"

[LLv34_Camouflage]

ROFL popeye!    I'm sure we'll see a lot of maps like that once the editor is released!  

Camo

------------------
Camouflage
XO, Lentolaivue 34
 www.muodos.fi/LLv34

Brewster into AH!

"The really good pilots use their superior judgement to keep them out of situations
where they might be required to demonstrate their superior skill."

[Hangtime]

Nash.. thanks.

I was hoping that somewhere.. somehow we could salvage the concept, but lacked the cool distance required to do the groundwork.

I suspect that Popeye has hit on the best one yet.. The Texas Caged Death arena rings a great bell. No ROE.. no rules.. find the other guy and kill him. I like it.  

Personalites will still remain an issue.. I call myself as witness as a case in point.

For mosta my adult life I've been called a 'mean drunk'.. so I just don't get drunk anymore. Normally; I maintain a rigid self control; and when it becomes threatened; I've learned to 'leave the room'.

Yep.. I'm very competitive by nature; yep; I strive to win. I roll into every fight with a wicked smile on my face; and I enter each and every one determined to win. It matters not the venue.. it's the competition I hunger for. Agressiveness is the hallmark of a good fighter pilot.. sez so about 30 times here in my copy of Shaws.   I AM agressive.. that ain't ever gonna change. Came with the name.. part of my heritage.  

Every fight has a winner.. and a loser. When it's just two of us.. I can control the situation.. or at least keep control of myself in the situation; and come out the other side; win or lose, unfazed. I strive to remain respectful of the adversry in victory; humble in defeat.

Seeing others get 'killed' by my incompetence was a new twist.. never before had I allowed such a situation to get so far outta control. I overeacted to the circumstances.. and allowed each and every shredded pony to mark my soul. I hurt.. and I lashed out; those guys were my responsibilty (to my mind) and they were cut lose without a clue as to what they were running into. My fault. And I hugely overeacted.  

Anyway; as the fight progressed I listened carefully to the radio reports comming in.. watching with mounting horror the kill buffer scroll.

After it was over.. stunned; I tried to be jovial; get a refly going, but the anger was roaring in my ears.. the LW spilt in two groups.. second group did not merge.. the plane count confusion.. the early 'fights on' call.. I fixed on what I had to work with in front of me.. the RW and text box reports; impressions from previous meetings with Hristo on the BBS and in the air.. and when I requested a refly I got more gas spilled on my fire with an arrogant rsponse.. and I exploded.

I left.. (we had 9 ponies otr at that point; ready to go for a refly..) ..and I went for a walk to calm down. Still; I'm not looking at myself; instead, I'm still looking at the things I could not control or lost control of. The anger blooms high again when the boasting continues in the Main; then it spills onto the BBS..

*SNAP* An embarassing tirade; one thats gone beyond the bitter emenity between myself and Hristo.. it's negativley affected many others here.. Intolerable. Unexcuseable. My fault entirely. It was entirely unecessary to kick the hell outta everything and everyone in range of me.. yet I felt powerless to stop myself. It took 15 hours to cool down to a point where I could become coherent again.. and it's been more years since I can count that I've been that angry.

So.. what have I learned from all this? (besides the fact that this is one incredibly immersive; addictive game)

One.. I won't allow myself to get into circumstances where others will be adversly affected or embarassed by my incompetence. Pride suffers defeat very pooly.

Two.. It's much better to consider that the other guy's intentions are honorable regardless of previous example.. and allow his course of action or inaction in the current set of circumstances to prove or disprove it. No assistance from me or anyone else is required; before, during or afterwards.

Three.. Never EVER assume that what you expect is what you'll get... and be at best happy and at worst, tacturn with what yah got; regardless. There's always ALWAYS gonna be a 'next time'; work instead for that moment and refer to number two when it comes.

Fourth and last..  The guys you fly with may have and probably DO have diffrent expectations than your own.. you must weight THEIR expectations against your own; and be damn sure that before you go in that what you set out to do is what you both came for.

It SHOULD have been to have fun and kick ass, win or lose. I should NEVER again go into a fight with the express intent of pushing the other guys face into the dirt to 'teach him his manners'. That's his momma's job. Mine is just ta kill the bastid.  

Thanks again Nash.. yer a good soul; and I'm most unhappy with the lashing you unjustly recieved at my hand. I do not know how to make it right.. I just hope I can find a way..

Salute!

Hang

[Torque]

Fog or War Combat Mission modeled it in their Sim. War is Hell.

[Badger]

<S> Hangtime.....

That message took a lot of personal courage.......

I'll fly my Cessna with you anytime, anywhere...  

Regards,
Badger

[Nash]

Quoteth Hangtime:

--------------------
"So.. what have I learned from all this? (besides the fact that this is one incredibly immersive; addictive game)

One.. I won't allow myself to get into circumstances where others will be adversly affected or embarassed by my incompetence. "
--------------------

It sounds to me like you learned enough here to make your second sentence unfortunate. I have no question that most of the flyers would line up to go to the mat for you again inna heartbeat. You owe it to yerself to get back on that horse and give it another shot.

We live and learn, and the best lessons are often learned the hard way. You came out of this with more experience than perhaps ya bargained for. Yer a better man now for it. In an odd way, be grateful.

I implore ya Hang. Get back on that horse.

<S!> - That was a damn fine post.

[milnko]

Guess I missed the hoopla.
 <S> Hangtime it took guts to apologize for your outburst.



------------------
CyberPilots have bigger Joysticks
BANDITS ON MY SIX!!!!

<< MILENKO >>
ACES HIGH ASSASSINS Website
WB/AH ASSASSINS Website

[Pongo]

Just think of how bad the other guy would have taken it...
 

[RAM]

 

Originally posted by Hangtime:
It SHOULD have been to have fun and kick ass, win or lose. I should NEVER again go into a fight with the express intent of pushing the other guys face into the dirt to 'teach him his manners'. That's his momma's job. Mine is just ta kill the bastid.    

Thanks again Nash.. yer a good soul; and I'm most unhappy with the lashing you unjustly recieved at my hand. I do not know how to make it right.. I just hope I can find a way..

Salute!

Hang

See remember, NaSh (hehe S not T   ) when I said that he did apreciate your work? that when he step back he was going to realize how wrong he was?.

This is what I expected to happen. but in the middle of it there have been a lot of things involved...

Well I'll only say that I dont see Hang as I did. It takes courage to do what he has done...amd I salute him about it, as like I said it was exactly what I expected to happen...

But I cant forget what he said about me.

Hold on the words towards me ,Hang, there are not needed. I read enough about what you think about me in the other thread.

And for sure I dont want to hear more.
----------------------------------------

For me this thing is closed and sealed. Rumbles are over for me unless I clearly see that SOMETHING changes in them: their objective is not other but have fun.

So until I see a proof that makes me see that the rumbles are what they are intended to be I'm out of them.

And I'm out of this matter, too.

RAM--------------> <Getting ready to be flamed>



[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 07-24-2000).]