Attacking B-17s

[hogenbor]

So far this is the most difficult thing I've tried to do in AH. After four months I can do all the things I want to do at least reasonably well, but attacking a box of B-17's is fiendlishly difficult because they don't have blind spots in their defensive armament.

If in a lightly armed fighter it's next to hopeless. Yesterday a clearly inexperienced pilot tried to attack a field. I was there in a P-51B and managed a good pass, damaging the lead bomber. The only choice after that was to approach from dead 6 and fire at close range with my four 0.50's. Because return fire was wildly inaccurate I managed to shoot down two of the B-17's while expending nearly all of my ammo. Sheer luck because appraoching a B-17 from dead 6 is usually fatal.

Usually B-17's are up high and getting there in a good Buff killer like a Fw190-a8 (with 30mm loadout) take ages. The a8 is also quite sluggish at high altitude so setting up a pass takes a loooong time. I tend to attack from the 2 o' clock position (level) point my aircraft just in front of the formation and time my attack so that I when in firing range I start to turn, making gunnery for the B17's more difficult. I basically start firing when I hope my shells will hit the nose of the lead aircraft and continue until I'm past the tail of the last. This is quite difficult to time but is sometimes succesful.

However, one fighter against a box of three B-17's is not a fair contest. I believe in my last tour I actually shot more B-17's down than any other aircraft but landing those kills is very rare indeed. Yesterday I stalked a B-17 formation for 15 minutes, finally being able to get a good pass. By that time I had been from 10.000 to 20.000 feet and back to the deck without firing a single shot. I got a few pings at very high speed, but was nevertheless hit fatally when I passed the formation and had to pull up to bleed speed and regain altitude. Aircraft was a Fw-190a5

To cut a long story short : Anyone ideas? ACM against fighters you can learn as you go along, but attacking B-17's is much rarer.

[Xjazz]

S!

1 vs 1 against good B17 gunner is deadly busines. If buff formation have 2 gunners (pilot & joined) then sitution is even worse.

Get a 1-3 good sticks with you and try to attack same time from bombers hi/lo 2-3  & 9-10 a clock.  

Good luck

[Ghosth]

B17 attacks need to be thought out carefully.

The best is to make high slashing attacks from the sides.  As soon as you hear pings break, do NOT give him a steady shot.

Approaching from the rear is called the "dead six" for a reason. Unless the bomber is AFK, or distracted you will likely die.

2 planes working together work best. Esp if your on opposite sides. He can only aim at one of you at a time, that one breaks hard, makes himself a hard target. The other guy has a easy run in.

Aim for wingtips, only takes a few rounds to blow a wingtip & buffs can't fly without it.

Formations make things tougher, but give you more targets, line up right and you may take out 2 with one pass.

Lancasters & B26's do a zoom from below as they have no belly gunner.

[Innominate]

The most important thing is to stay fast.  A slow target is a dead target.

Second, patience.  If you screw up a pass, don't get impatient and fall into his six hoping you'll kill him before he gets you.  Take your time, set up your shots, and make them count.

Third, angles.  Don't fly straight at him except when you need to fire(If you can be turning during that, even better)  The point is that, from his view as a gunner, you want him to have to chase you around the sky, not have a nice head on gunshot of you.

Fourth, guns.  Don't even attempt to kill a buff with .50's unless you have a lot of patience.  It can be done, but is mostly just a waste of ammo.

Remember:  Virtually all buff's kills are people crawling up thier six.  You are an easy target on thier six, so don't be there.   The gun passes are everything, you need to present the worst possible target to the gunner.

[hogenbor]

Thanks guys, but all the things you mention I already found out the hard way.

I hope it's obvious I attack B17's regularly but not nearly as often as fighter to fighter combat... but that is probably true for all of us. I'll just try to perfect the passes then and to don't get impatient...

[Soda]

An additional couple of comments, when attacking bombers, take an appropriate aircraft.  Don't take something with weak guns (like .303's) or something that won't be able to keep up to the bomber (like a Zero).  Also, taking something that relies on getting very close in order to land hits can be dangerous if those hits aren't going to inflict serious damage quickly (ie, don't plan on getting close and staying there for long).  The best, at least I think so, plane for anti-bomber work is the 109G10 with gondolas and the 30mm spinner cannon.  It has the ability to climb above, race ahead of, and then deliver fatal hits very quickly with the 30mm and twin gondola 20mm cannons from many angles.  Something slow, like the Zero, has trouble getting to good positions for attacks and has to basically play catchup.  Something like the La5 tends to have to get too close to land serious hits, but also has to stay in that very close area far too long in order to really deliver the knockout blow.

-Soda
AH Trainer
The Assassins.

[Furious]

aim for wingroot or wingtip, not fuselage.


F.

[MaddogJoe]

I fly the F4U-1D alot and I find it very good at takin out B17's.  My runs are like this..

get out front of the buff group, and atleast 2k above. Make your run as close to head on as possible. At 2-3k out dive to 1k under buff alt.. for two reasons 1 to gain speed for bugging out, and 2 so that you have that "turning" shot that was mention above. Pull up aiming for the wings...never the fuselage. After making your pass,loop up and over, and break abit to the left or right.... never loop strait up and over. It is very posible to kill a buff-a-pass this way. You can come in from the buffs 1 or 11 oclock possition too, it just makes aiming a bit tuffer. Only do this is you have to, to stop the buffs, it is far better to go in with a wingman to confuse the gunner and share the kills, but how do ya divide that last buff?

Maddog Joe

 

[akak]

Another good way of attacking bombers is from above, using a high speed diving pass.

Approach the bombers from above and when you get above them, roll over and dive down at a steep angle, 45 degrees or so.  Aim the nose of your plane between the cockpit and the top turret of your targeted bomber (I aim for the player controlled bomber first) and fire when you get within range.  At this steep of a dive angle, the bomber's gunners (especially the top turret) can't track your plane properly.  And since you've pointed your nose between the cockpit and top turret, all your shots will fall in the wing root section and usually scoring a kill on the first pass.  The benefit of aiming for the player controlled bomber is that when you destroy it, you can get lucky and down all three planes in formation if the player is slow to switch into any of the surviving bombers.

I'll dig around when I get home from work and post some of my bomber kill films.


Ack-Ack

[Furious]

maddog,

i feel that you have this attack a bit backwards.  attacking the bombers from beneath leaves you slow above the guns.

if you have the alt and are in front, use a chandelle, cuban 8, etc. to reverse while climbing and attack from above heading in the general direction of the bombers.  this leaves you with lots of speed to climb up and repeat.

[Shuckins]

It aids your gunnery to have your ship trimmed properly, especially in a diving attack, where speed tends to build up rapidly.  Cut to half throttle, then hit shift + x to trim for angle and speed.  After a few seconds, hit x and your ship is trimmed much better for a diving attack.

I like to start my attack from about 3k above from about the high-two o'clock or ten o'clock position, pushing over into a dive parallel to buff's wingtip, then rolling toward cockpit and wingroot as I dive. As the buff moves underneath your diving fighter, continue to roll and pull gunsight slightly ahead of cockpit.  As you fire watch for strikes and adjust your lead accordingly.  Even if you miss the cockpit you will usually hit the vital wing root areas.

I favor .50 calibers because of their rapid rate of fire and flat trajectory.  A three or four second burst is usually enough to bring down a B-17.  Your rolling approach from above is harder for the top-turret gunner to track and minimizes strikes against your aircraft.

Regards, Shuckins

[bozon]

exploiting some "game features" - make your attack run starting from the side and above the B17's wing plane. dive so at 1k you cross below that plane and then pull for the shot.
the gunner will probably be in the top turret and he can't shoot at you when you dive below the wing (he'll need to lead you as well). the switch to the belly turret will take him another split second and will give you the time needed to close the distance without being shot.

Bozon

[devious]

Best way to kill 'em IMHO is to come from the lead bomber's high 10 or 2 o'clock - fast - and kill 2 of the formation with close range cannonfire.

190s excel at this b/c of their great hitting power.

For those "I need to stop him soon" six attacks, I usually dive 2k below him and pull to his belly at D1.0, trying not to enter the rear gunners field of fire at all or guns blazing from very close range.

[H. Godwineson]

Another approach that works for me is to approach head on at their high 12 o'clock.  Dive to the level of their cockpit, then when about 2K from the buff, dive under his nose and out of his line of sight.  This approach keeps him changing gunnery positions, if he's flying alone that is.  When you dive under his nose, he has to change to the ball turret, which often has its guns pointing to the rear of his aircraft.  He will lose you for a few seconds while he attempts to traverse the guns to the front and downward.  This may give you time for a telling shot at his unprotected belly.

Shuckins

[medicboy]

I have found that if you have to approach from the rear and don't have time to climb and stalk (like trying to kill the buffs before they drop)  approach from 730-8 oclock or 4-430.  also make changes in altitude , because you are at an angle and changing in the vertical it makes it very hard for a gunner to hit even a slow target.  Like stated before aim for the wings, or if you are off to the side, try to concentrate hits on the tail.  You may kill the tail gun, cause an inexperienced gunner to use all his ammo, or knock the tail off.    Using something with cannons helps but is not necesary.  Also check the convergence settings of the plane you are flying.  I have found that most planes are set to around 250, which makes for a wide pattern at realistic distances.  I always set the convergence for around 550-600, this helped my one pass kills not only on buffs but on fighters also.

Now for the unconvential, if you are brave try using rockets on buff formations.  if you get the proper angle it works great.  I have killed entire formations in one pass this way, but it takes practice and patientce, and is easy to miss altogether and waste a good pass.