Author Topic: 13th Sentai is looking (Read 2763 times)

HiJack · « **Reply #45 on:** March 19, 2003, 12:30:03 PM »

Key was a good duel, sorry bout the misunderstanding, we usually dont count numbers and fly whatever planes the squad usually flys, in VF27 we have one division that flys the F4U-1 that is why they were in there, we also dont set an alt we try to do it as it would be in any other arena, we just dont fly around gaining alt we fly directly at what is the engagement area. Our first duel we were outnumbered by 6 or 7 if we cant manage enuff guys we fly anyway, think that was with the 325th, when we flew against the 880 squadron think we had 3 more than them.

After we got things organized turned into a real good fight, you guys have some really good sticks over there, and was pretty even. Would like to try this again when we cant set it up better and both side understand what is going on, that way there is no surprise. Notice some got kinda upset, so next time we make sure they know what is going on, as a CO sure you know its hard to handle some of these hotshot AH pilots, hehe, Know how it is in my squad. So let me know and thanks for the fights!

Arlo · « **Reply #46 on:** March 20, 2003, 11:14:21 AM »

Quite honestly, if there's no alt or fuel caps set, there's no basis for "honor disputes" later. Most everyone knows that having alt on your foe (even 1-2k) is one of the most valuable assets at the start of an engagement.

The 13th Sentai knew this in our duel and made good use of it. There wasn't a single engagement where we met co-alt (we were able to get to the "alt cap" once and saw dots 2-3k higher than us). That's fine, we saluted and took it on the chin - making note to ourselves that future engagements with alt caps have a "give or take a few k of alt" flexibilty.

If we're talking the plane match-up, then there's little can be done if your opponent decides to fly something else - other than refuse to engage him (if possible). If there's not parity in numbers, it would be expected to try to balance things by either letting the side with lower numbers have better planes or to wait for a bit while the outnumbered side recruits some pinch hitters.

In our duel, there was an uninvited 262 that came in and splashed a few of us. Of course, this was a third party interloper that apparently thought we all upped in F4F-4s and A6M2s looking for his 262 to duel. Still, no calls for a "redo" came of it. Both sides took it as a rather unusual "fortune of war".

So, my suggestions:

No alt caps
No fuel caps
Balance contingencies set
No "honor disputes" later

One other possible suggestion is to have duels arranged to be fought HTH, thereby eliminating the possibility of "German Jet aces" crashing the party and later claiming they "didn't know".

But I don't speak for the 13th either(nor do I speak for the JRs, in this case) - nor can I say I know all the details of the fight you experienced as a 13th "pinch hitter" against the 27th.

Hijack mentions "things getting organized" and "turning into a real good fight". Maybe that pov isn't universal (well, obviously it isn't).

No matter what the case ... if future duels are to be attempted (hopefully on a regular basis), then there needs to be some discussion and settlement made by the parties involved in prior match-ups. And these discussions should involve positive suggestions without casting aspersions on the character of individuals or units as a whole.

Once things are fine-tuned, then it's up to the C.O.s representing the squadrons to enforce the ground rules (before, during and after the engagements) to minimize the chances of having just this kind of "dispute of honor" taint all future chances of enjoying such squadron vs. squadron events.

Unfortunately, it's hard to enforce anything on some players - be they squadron members or guests. (One more good reason to make the duels HTH.)

HiJack · « **Reply #47 on:** March 20, 2003, 05:27:58 PM »

First I suggest you ask your CO about what was said about the duel, Key and i were conversing and i said fly what you want and he asked what we flew and I told him and also told him to fly whatever IJN or IJAA planes they wanted, if there was a misunderstanding so be it, that does not make one inhonorable, so think what you want Grissom thats your right. As for the numbers go we dont ask what they are either in your favour or ours, it makes no difference to us whether we are outnumbered or not, we already had our guys in the air when I was asked how many, I was never asked to cut it to your numbers untill after the first duel, which I did on the second time around, we also went to strictley one plane the second time around as asked althought some of our squad do not fly that plane, I dont know what your problem is Haven but its yours and not ours, I know most of the guys in the 13th and have flown with and against them many times, what surprised me is that they let you in the squad. As for a rematch, Im with you Haven forget it we dont need it! Sorry key but i have very little tolerance for someone who jumps to conclusions, sorry it ended up this way, I thought most enjoyed the duel, guess i misunderstood.

Arlo · « **Reply #48 on:** March 20, 2003, 06:46:18 PM »

Dammit .....

This is a good thing gone bad apparently. Doesn't hafta be that way. Either set ground (air) rules or not. My suggestion is to not, for the most part.

At the most, set up the plane match-ups and go ahead and see about some contingencies for numbers balancing (8 VF-17 vs. 5 13th Sentai? - ok, instead of A6M2s for all the 13th pilots, give them A6M5s ... or give two of them N1Ks or ... some such).

Or ... even that can be standardized. VF-27 has certain birds it flies. VF-17's official squadron ride is the F4U-1. Granted, the 13th has less to select from. But there's bound to be a plane they can use that'll give them a good mount for a USN vs IJ fight. I'm even for giving the 13th their individual pilot's preference of mount, given the IJ planeset limitations.

Concerned it would become "grab duel" with squads spending 30 minutes trying to outgrab the other before engaging? Then set up other restrictions that aren't "flight envelope prohibitive". Time limit to engage. Say both units have to be in icon range within X number of minutes or the hop is scrubbed. Add an additional factor or "defense" or "offense" (squad A wins the toss and elects to attack, squad B must defend their base). Etc ....

But alt caps and attack limitations will lead to "honor disputes".

HiJack · « **Reply #49 on:** March 21, 2003, 04:38:55 PM »

I agree Arlo, although there really was no disagreement between key and myself, he just ask "why the 3 F4U-1s" and i answered that it was one of the 27th squad planes that we fly the other being the F6. This was in white text so other members of the squads did not get the info, then we start getting some nasty remarks from Haven, and now i know he is not a 13th Sentai, was just filling in, and some remarks be a few of my pilots, which i stopped right then. Them key and I discussed what was going on and things, I thought anyway got straightened out, we flew the F6 only and limited our pilots to their number. I thought it was a good duel and so did most of their pilots too there were and good remarks made. I did not realize that Haven wasnt one of theirs until I reread the posts and I apologize to the 13th if anything I said was hurtful and would love to duel them again. Like I said before the 13th was started by ex VF27 pilots so the ct would have a full time axis squad, and i know most of their pilots and have flown with and against them many times and have nothing but respect for them and their squad, I know how diffacult it is to be a Japanese squad they dont have much on their side and not many like to fly the planes. So 13th if you are interested in another duel just let me know, it would be an honour to fly against you again, and this time we will make sure we all understand whats going on hehe! ~~LCDR HiJacker~~

Dennis · « **Reply #50 on:** March 21, 2003, 06:04:48 PM »

I'm the newbie on the block as far as squad membership goes, so take my comments for what they're worth ... or ignore them altogether if you like.

If you guys want to continue the dueling thing, I think Arlo's suggestion of HTH is probably the best place to start. If nothing else, it might prevent the intervention of jet jockeys and the porking of fuel (elimination of drop-tank option) by stray F6F's right before the engagement.

Then again, it might not.

I say 'you guys' because the 13th vs. VF27 thing left a bad taste in my mouth as far as 'squad duels' go, and I won't be participating in any more unless the communication kinks can be worked out and 'everyone's on the same page of the playbook.'

And ultimately, this whole debacle was probably just a communication problem, judging from HiJacker's comments. I have no reason to think he's insincere. All I know is Key was very clear with us as far as the rules of engagement as he understood them.

It's just best just to believe something got lost in the CO-to-CO communication, and forget about it.

As for me, I can avoid the frustration by avoiding the situation.

Cya in the CT.
Splash1

Sikboy · « **Reply #51 on:** March 21, 2003, 06:32:06 PM »

wow, this thread went downhill fast.

-Sik

Arlo · « **Reply #52 on:** March 21, 2003, 06:52:18 PM »

Hi there! Watcha doin?

HiJack · « **Reply #53 on:** March 21, 2003, 08:45:49 PM »

Ol this is my last comment on the issue, we have flown 4 squad duels, the one with the 13th Sentai is the only one there was ever any problem with, if the guys in the 13th think that we would intentionaly change planes or fly different planes thats fine, think what you want, as for Haven he can stick his opinions where his brain is, who gives a damn what he thinks! I told key from the beginning what planes he flew and that he could fly any planes he wanted, after the first sortie we flew the same numbers and we all flew the same plane, now i dont understand what the problem is here, if you guys think Im not being truthful, thats fine, no big deal, but i offered a rematch on your terms dont know what else you want, so be it, sorry it had to end like this.

Grissom · « **Reply #54 on:** March 21, 2003, 09:10:09 PM »

The 'deal' that was passed on was:

1) SEVEN pilots per side.
you brought at least 10.

2) Ki-61's v F6F first fight. A6M5 v F4U second fight.
You lumped first and second fight into the first one. Was that part of your two divisions versus one flight duel deal?

3) Fight was at 25k w/75% gas.
We were there, not our fault you decided to grab speed 2k lower. At that alt, VF-27 shouldn't have had to cheat to win.

I could go on, but why bother, when all HiJacker's going to do is whine away about his valiant squadron?

My brain works fine on my shoulders HiJacker. Maybe it's you and your mob that should pull your collective heads out of your collective asses.

HiJack · « **Reply #55 on:** March 21, 2003, 10:14:54 PM »

Thats your version, and of course its the right one!

-Concho- · « **Reply #56 on:** March 21, 2003, 11:52:50 PM »

Haven i am curious to know if you reflect the opinon of your squad.

Slash27 · « **Reply #57 on:** March 24, 2003, 12:44:28 AM »

Man look at Haven, what a first class BBS warrior! You have put the "Valiant" VF 27 in thier place. Way to take them down a few notches. You have exposed them for the self righteous cheaters they are. Thank god somebody has finally exposed them. Kudos sir <~~> HiJacker is devious and cunning. Stay vigilent , you will prevail. You are one of the toughest 12 year olds Ive seen. WTG hero!~~

Estes · « **Reply #58 on:** March 24, 2003, 02:07:12 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Grissom

3) Fight was at 25k w/75% gas.
We were there, not our fault you decided to grab speed 2k lower. At that alt, VF-27 shouldn't have had to cheat to win.

If I'm not mistaken 25k would be the MAX alt as you can't go above that alt? You can go below if you want...At least that is the rules for the simladder duels..I thought it would be about the same. If im wrong excuse my ignorance..

Grissom · « **Reply #59 on:** March 24, 2003, 05:40:18 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by -Concho-
Haven i am curious to know if you reflect the opinon of your squad.

Concho: It is not my squad. To be quite frank, I doubt I will make it past the two week try out and be voted into the squad. (Yes I'm on trial tour here... are you so surprised?)

But I do pay attention to the squad channel, and I have no problem speaking out when I see something wrong that needs addressing.

I also have no problem admitting when I am wrong. Which, on reflection of my status in the squadron, I should have left it to the CO/XO's to hash out. However, that is not my nature to sit by when I see a wrong be done.

Sorry if my sense of sportsmanship is old fashioned, or outdated than the more up to date "win at all costs" one.

To all involved: I would recommend one thing to do during your "Duel aranging"... Get it on film, please.

That is all I have to say on this subject.

Slash27: TYVM for modifying your post in Bolt45's thread. *S*

Concho & Slash: Good try the other night in your GV's *S*

EOM