<S> Americans

[Naso]

Originally posted by Hangtime
Naso.. in a nutshell; americas position, slowly so the the dimmer points of light out there can catch the drift..

americans are pissed.

it ain't a good idea to piss america off.

americans are pretty nice folks.. they super generous with aid and if you get their symathetic ear they'll spend lotsa time and money puttin out fires around the world and aside from using those disgusting smiley faces everywhere and always with the "have a nice day" toejam they seem to be tolerably ok people.

but; now we're pissed.

....ain't a good idea to piss us off. We'll park a carrier group or four in front of your bristo and pound the toejam outta yah.

I'm wondering how long it's gonna take for the rest of the world to figure out the one unrelenting, repeated and demonstrated so many times point of american diplomacy..

americans are chumps.. you can steal from 'em, lie to 'em, screw their women and call 'em names. But don't bomb 'em. That tends to piss 'em off.

it ain't a good idea to piss america off.

Nothing to say about this, I agree, it's a good and honest paint of the US, and one of the reasons why I have this strange dual-opposite feeling with US (like and dislike).



BTW, you did'nt answer to my request to include your sentence in my signature (look some post above).

[Naso]

Originally posted by Toad
Naso,

Hortlund beat me to it and probably said it better than I would have.

Nonetheless the point remains. We're not out for conquest. We almost always leave places better than we found them when our troops arrived.

I did'nt say was for conquest (Afganistan) I'd say revenge.
And I am not expressing a moral judgement.

Beyond that, when everything turns to dung and the bullets start to fly...... even you know where the world turns for help.

I really don't care if you don't like us. I really don't care if you continually suspect our motives. I really don't squelch anyone.

Ok, if you feel better believing I hate you, be happy with that.
You are wrong, but nothing I can say will change your mind.
White or black.
With me or against me.

But I do remember.

I remember when I write my Congressmen and President. I remember to have my sons read some of this board; their day will come and I want them to realize what/who they may be spending/fighting for. And I want them to pass it on to their sons.

I told you long ago I was a near total isolationist. 9/11 changed that a bit. I still want all US troops within our borders as soon as possible.

Here you become threatening, for an entire nation.

In my profile there's my true name, I will sacrifice myself to save innocent lives.

No more space for different ideas, the only ideas accepted must be in US line and expressed by an US citizen.

[Naso]

Oh, and what is the next step?

Send my name to the FBI?

To the CIA?

Next time I want to visit my friends in US I will have my visa denied?

For the AH con too?

Or I have to fear you beating me if I show in the CON?

See where this hate it's going?

I can expect Grunhertz calling me "communist @@##@" or Hortlund to sit on his throne and pontificate.

But I guessed you was a man that can hold a discussion with cold blood and without blind rage.

Things are changed, but dont accuse me for it.

[Toad]

Wrong conclusions.

I remember attitudes, not individuals. And the attitudes are not uncommon on this BBS, the International news media (not just US outlets) or in some of the people I personally meet from other countries.

These experiences have reinforced my isolationism; I expose my sons to examples of it found here and in the international news media. As I said their day will come when they have to vote and decide, as it will for their sons.

To me, it hasn't been worth it.

I see no reason for US troops to be deployed abroad. It isn't appreciated for long, no matter what the mission.

[Toad]

Your initial implication was that there are NO armies that are sent for liberation rather than conquest. I beg to differ. We've had our missteps but I'll take the record of the US over any other.

Even Italy, home to my paternal grandfather. After the Italians did in Mussolini, the Germans simply took over. Who got them to leave, eh? And, when it was all over, who then left Italy without making it a colony or subjugating it under a foreign government?

I don't believe you hate me or any or all Americans. I do think you have unrealisitic expectations about us. I do think you're predisposed to be against anything we are doing.

AFTER the US takes its inevitable and unavoidable strike by some terrorist group using a "weapon of mass destruction" THEN it probably will be "with us or against us" on a worldwide scale.

Now? I personally couldn't care less whether you, Italy or all Europeans are with us or against us. For those that care to research, you'll find I am not in favor of war with Iraq at this time. In fact, I will be writing my governmental representatives shortly expressing my opinion to that effect.

I'm not threatening at all........ unless you consider it a threat to personally become even more isolationist, to allow my sons to read what the Euros here are posting and encouraging them to isolationism as well and praying that THEIR sons will also be isolationist.

There's space for all ideas. That is basically "the American way". But I don't have to agree with them... you see, in our way I get to have my own ideas too... just like you.

But along with the expression of ideas, there's a catch. People may actually take you at their word. And if they disagree with you, they may reallocate their priorities and resources to people or ideas that the majority feels would be more beneficial.

And that's what I hope will happen here in the US and what I impress on my sons.

[Toad]

I have to laugh here Naso. You really have a great imagination.

I don't hate you a bit; there's not a bit of blind rage. You have your views, I have mine and we totally disagree.

If you came to the con, I'd talk with you, not fight you. We'd still probably disagree, though.

Would I buy you a beer... maybe, maybe not. In the old days, I'd have said "absolutely"; but as you said, these are not the old days. There have been things said here about Americans that I really DO remember.

Your relationship with the US government is your relationship, not mine.

I think this is a great example of how far off your personal stereotype of US citizens is.

[Dowding]

And if they disagree with you, they may reallocate their priorities and resources to people or ideas that the majority feels would be more beneficial.

You really expect to find a country that agrees with your own individual beliefs? A massive group of other individuals each with their own set of opinions? That's very naive. Even America is a disparate collection of individuals, often with hugely polarised opinions.

Yet again you mention the binary logic of Bush. Sometimes, there is room for disagreement between allies.

Good luck in your isolationism. It could never work and I think if the US seriously went ahead with it the consequences would be catastrophic. Maybe not immediately, but eventually the world would coming knocking at the US' door. The world is getting smaller and resources getting scarcer - the US cannot afford to withdraw from the world stage. It can also not expect to get complete agreement from all allies, all of the time. Sometimes, the national interests of the US will not coincide with those of European states - but that's no reason to end all cooperation. What would happen to trade agreements, in your total isolation?

[Siaf__csf]

Give it up guys..

Many (let me point out many, not all) US citizens have grown up in a bubble.. They don't know much about the world outside the US, other than what they're taught, and that's not much from what I've heard. USA is such a large country that it's easy to forget it's still just a small part of the planet.

If you grow up in a bubble you most likely continue to live in it.

When someone tries to look out of the bubble, all they see is thier own reflection. This is what is clearly happening here.

I wish people would realise there is no need for country bashing. Each countries have thier good and bad points and each of the citizens have to live with them. Often pride and nationalistic people have a hard time accepting the facts if someone from outside points out things that are not so good in the system. It's natural to be defensive.. Too bad the discussion usually degrades to a really low level.

Calm down guys and try to learn to understand eachothers. Knowledge is the key to tolerance. Tolerance is the key to peace.

[Dowding]

I'm perfectly calm, my friend.

I think you'll find Toad has spent a lot of life away from the US. He's been out of any bubble for a long time, which is why I'm curious as to why he should want to create one now. His choice, of course.

[Naso]

Originally posted by Toad
Your initial implication was that there are NO armies that are sent for liberation rather than conquest. I beg to differ. We've had our missteps but I'll take the record of the US over any other.

Ok.

Even Italy, home to my paternal grandfather. After the Italians did in Mussolini, the Germans simply took over. Who got them to leave, eh? And, when it was all over, who then left Italy without making it a colony or subjugating it under a foreign government?

There's a lot to discuss on this issue, I wish to know if this is a generalization, or you believe it's so simple as you say.

Only one thing: Here, 4-5 Km from my house there is the Nato HQ for Southern Europe (Yes I am in the central part of an huge target for the old Red Army Ballistic Missiles), in this base there are soldiers and officers from all the countries of the Alliance.
3 Km away, about 1-2 Km from my house, there's a huge installation, guarded by Marines and MPs, the name is NSO, Naval Support Organization, and is open only for U.S. military personnel, even if can be obtained, by the US command a permit to enter.
Guess why?
Oh, an hint: on official administration territory charts it's called "US occupation force installation" and it's due to be occupied until the 2042 (99 years).

So maybe, maybe, the things are not as simple as you seem to suggest.

BTW, I am amazed looking how many US posters have some Ita ancestor, I imagined the percentage was inferior (I know it's not statistically valid).

I don't believe you hate me or any or all Americans. I do think you have unrealisitic expectations about us. I do think you're predisposed to be against anything we are doing.

I thank you to accept that, maybe I have unrealistic expectation from any people, and I have suspects on anything, ANY government, mine or yours, will do.

AFTER the US takes its inevitable and unavoidable strike by some terrorist group using a "weapon of mass destruction" THEN it probably will be "with us or against us" on a worldwide scale.

You can bet your balls, in that case there will be no doubt about allies, and you will be surprised how many you will count on you side.

[Naso]

Originally posted by Toad
I have to laugh here Naso. You really have a great imagination.

I don't hate you a bit; there's not a bit of blind rage. You have your views, I have mine and we totally disagree.

If you came to the con, I'd talk with you, not fight you. We'd still probably disagree, though.

Pheew I feel better now, you know I am not a big guy.

Would I buy you a beer... maybe, maybe not. In the old days, I'd have said "absolutely";

I will still "absolutely" buy one to you, if you will accept it.

....I think this is a great example of how far off your personal stereotype of US citizens is.

I was exagerating to put in evidence the hidden violence in your words, violence that it's still there.

And I am talking about government and some aspects of general culture, not generalizating the single citizens (remember I know few of US people, of different types).

Oh, maybe now I understand, maybe I used forms that let you think I was doing personal attacks.

My mistake.

[Naso]

Originally posted by Siaf__csf
Give it up guys..

Many (let me point out many, not all) US citizens have grown up in a bubble.. They don't know much about the world outside the US, other than what they're taught, and that's not much from what I've heard. USA is such a large country that it's easy to forget it's still just a small part of the planet.

If you grow up in a bubble you most likely continue to live in it.

When someone tries to look out of the bubble, all they see is thier own reflection. This is what is clearly happening here.

I wish people would realise there is no need for country bashing. Each countries have thier good and bad points and each of the citizens have to live with them. Often pride and nationalistic people have a hard time accepting the facts if someone from outside points out things that are not so good in the system. It's natural to be defensive.. Too bad the discussion usually degrades to a really low level.

Calm down guys and try to learn to understand eachothers. Knowledge is the key to tolerance. Tolerance is the key to peace.

Eh eh, siaf, I guess you are new to this BB, btw dont worry, it's hot, sometime there's stuff flying across the room, but each one of us have a life outside this "simil.life" (well... almost everyone ), and bigger priorities.

Anyway, I your post.

Nationalism it's bad.

[Siaf__csf]

AFTER the US takes its inevitable and unavoidable strike by some terrorist group using a "weapon of mass destruction" THEN it probably will be "with us or against us" on a worldwide scale.

We all know what this means right? Let's pray things will never escalate to this point although the religious fundamentalists are praying the opposite (book example of ignorance caused by religious aspirations.)

[StSanta]

Hangtime wrote:
americans are pretty nice folks.. they super generous with aid and if you get their symathetic ear they'll spend lotsa time and money puttin out fires around the world and aside from using those disgusting smiley faces everywhere and always with the "have a nice day" toejam they seem to be tolerably ok people.

Bahahaha, the US ranks a distant 22'nd with regards to foreign aid in percentage of BNP terms.

USA: 0.11% of BNP. Even Greece gives more.

Denmark, at first place, spends a whopping ten times more: 1.01 per cent, down from 1.11.

So we're much nicer people than you. We're more generous too. And it's been a while since we killed people of other nations in an emotional outburst because we were pissed.

You suck, you cheapskates. Deth to Amreeka! Deth to Bu(ll)shitler!



This has been a tongue-in-cheek comment. If you're unable to grasp that, quite possible you are suffering from the head-up-the-arse syndrome, a disease that is related to tongue-in-cheek through marriage.

Toad, I don't believe isolationism would work, for several reasons. One, whatever happens outside the US will affect the US. During the start of WWII, the US had an isolationist stance. Still, they were attacked by Japan and got dragged into the war. An earlier intervention en masse might have shortened the war considerably. OTOH, the American public wouldn't have been behind that.

Secondly, the US have massive economic interests around the world. Taking an isolationist stance will mean loss of goodwill and loss of revenue. If the US goes out with its mighty armed forces to secure some interest abroad without the cooperation of the country in question, it'd be bloody. Certainly, things like oil pipelines would be hard to protect.

Other nations would not be isolationists - they'd fill the vacuum left by the US. There'd be fierce battling for this lucrative position, and some nations will win. Their economies will grow, as will their military might. Sooner or later some country unfriendly to the US will rise in power; all the slights American administrations have ever caused (or are perceived to have caused, maybe this is more important) will come back and bite the US in the arse. The enemies of the US regard the US as arrogant and imperialistic. This arrogance is also seen at some times by US allies - the with us or against us, the black and white binary world view. The arrogance results in a humiliation of allied friends - and those friends are just as proud as are Americans. If you have a friend who isn't very good with the ladies and you're great with them, you aren't a very good friend if you say 'hahah, you're such an ugly little man. No one wants you. Now watch me as I go screw the girl you're in love with - just because I CAN'.

The politicians, being hungry for power, aren't likely to want to let go of their influence of world affairs. It's not in the interest of the US to lose influence or income. And what many Americans may see as 'liberation' or 'struggle for democracy', the natives of whatever country in question may seem as unwanted American intervention, done to secure regional influence or economic interests. The US did great things in WWI and WWII, but this does not mean that the US is exempt from scrutiny. There are numerous cases where the US has acted in a questionable manner to secure their own interests - Vietnam is one, and the selling of biological and chemical weapons to Saddam in the 80s another. Helping Pinochet gaining power, overthrowing a democratically elected leader, and then standing mute while said person exterminates thousands of people is yet another. The Contras deal wasn't particularly intelligent either. Just examples; most of the dirty work was done by the CIA without the consent of the US people, but it still was the US who produced these agents.

'Yes he's a son of a squeak, but he is OUR son of a squeak' was once said by a US official. It's with this attitude many opressive regimes were directly or indirectly supported by the US. So, the US has left some places worse after they left.

By far, I believe it's great that we have a superpower like the US. Sure, Americans can be black-and-white at times. Aye, they can be arrogant sons of squeakes. Yes, they're a bit too cocky and they gloat a bit too much, but that is expected of a nation that still is just a toddler. They share our values, and they protect them. It's a democratic place full of nice people. The average American, maybe due to the rather binary world view, has a strong moral sense of right and wrong, and the will to defend the weak. I don't think I would want any other nation to have all that power. Well, maybe Denmark. We'd socialize the toejam outta it and lose it eventually.

Toad, I can understand that it sucks not to have any gratitude from the countries the US HAS helped. OTOH, expecting gratitude to mean automatic acception of all US foreign policy decisions is taking it too far. There's bound to be disagreement when US national interests collide with European, Asian, Australian etc national interests. And that is better resolved through cooperation than isolationism, IMHO. Today it is impossible to live in a little bubble of ones own making - we're ALL interdependent. If all trade with the US was stopped, the US would have a crumbling economy and a new superpower would emerge. Same for DK, except the superpower bit - we still have a way to go there. Maybe we'll be as powerful as New York in a few hundred years.

The US might do well to ease up on the influencing of world affairs. But I doubt a truly isolationist stance would do the US much good in the long run.

[Naso]

ROTFL Santa!!

You bring some sanity in this dark thread (in me too )

Thanks