Why Europe (mainly France though) is against the US policy on Iraq.

[Habu]

The concept of a unified Europe is new. So new in fact that it is very hard for such a group of diverse and different cultures to define what exactly they all have in common. In fact it is easier to see what they don't have in common, and the further along the Europeans get in their project of integration, the more apparent these differences become.  It is all right to generally agree in the principal of unification, but as the gritty details are worked out sometimes the only common ground that can be found is not in defining what Europe is, but what it is not. And as France and Germany like to point out lately, it is not the same as the United States.

But why the US bashing? In the process of unifying Europe is being racked with difficulties.  A constitutional convention, begun last year to replace the EU's various founding treaties with a single document is floundering as no consensus can be arrived at. Even its two main international economic policies engagement with the third world and free trade, are being undercut by agriculture subsides and protectionism. There is no common foreign policy.

In domestic policy France is about to openly flout the rule that forbids countries that have adopted the Euro from running a large deficit.

In light of all the trouble Europe is having trying to be Europe, the current tense relationship with the United States, typified by its criticism of American policy towards Iraq, can be understood.

Slowing economies, institutional confusion, and politically aloof elitists have paved the way for xenophobic parties (most of which loathe the EU itself) to score victories in recent years in Austria, France, Denmark, Sweden, and the Netherlands.

It is the attempt to defuse this growing threat without addressing its own problems that the European political class has switched the question from "What's is wrong with Europe?" to "What is wrong in America?" This is a common tactic that is used extensively in the third world to deflect criticism of domestic governments. What is surprising is that it is not being used by a major western power.

Europe's criticism of American policies is not always a bad thing. The US deserves and needs to have scrutiny of its policy's. Europe can function much like an opposition political party moderating some of America's more extreme views, if it were acting for the right reasons.

However an opposition must do more than criticize--it must also present an alternative. What's the European alternative security policy? What is their policy on Iraq? What is their stand on respect for human rights? If it is the same as the UN's then you know they have none.

Until Europe can demonstrate that it stands for something positive and coherent, its routine opposition to the United States will be recognized for what it is: cynical political calculation. So take what Europe says with a grain of salt. When you see France and Germany proposing a credible solution to the Iraqi situation then you will know that they are acting out of a morally justifiable reason. But that ain't happening now.

[straffo]

more lines in your post than I want to translate




















The truth is : we just want to piss you

[straffo]

I do find your analyse far from being complete ...

Did you notice that in France as in Germany position the subject was the lack of proof given by the US ?


I bet that as soon as GWB show some conclusive proof USA will be back by German and French like in 1990.

Only a mouton (sheep ?) like Tony Blair and some can follow USA only using their "Faith" (read $$$$) in USA.

If you can have a UN decision like the one which started UN intervention in Korea we will do your part of the job (like we did in Korea too).

Otherwise you are alone with your ass-licker.

btw when I see a friend about to make an error I do all that i can  to change is mind ... it's our role in this story if you confuse tat with American-bashing you're just plain wrong.
 

Actually US public opinion look to be pro war ... what will happen when you will see the 1st coffin coming back from gulf ?

You will give them a diddlying medal and a "hero" status ?

You will kill father son friend mother and so on just because you are "war addicted" ? what a pity .

[Saintaw]

Europe can function much like an opposition political party moderating some of America's more extreme views, if it were acting for the right reasons.

And you are surprised to see Euros on this board getting touchy..., right... what a surprise.

[funkedup]

Only a mouton (sheep ?) like Tony Blair and some can follow USA only using their "Faith" (read $$$$) in USA

US & UK intelligence communities have always had a "special relationship".  I'm pretty sure Blair has access to a lot of data that other Euro leaders don't.

[-dead-]

Originally posted by Straffo
Only a mouton (sheep ?) like Tony Blair and some can follow USA only using their "Faith" (read $$$$) in USA

Actually he's not a sheep, he's a muppet and should more correctly be called "Fozzie Blair".

[Saintaw]

Pak-Blair (Warning : Completely Off-tpic)

[bounder]

Fozzy Blair, lol.

US, UK Australia and some others have the Echelon Intelligence Supra agency - and they refuse to share info with other Euros, despite allegations of industrial espionage.

[Maverick]

Straffo,

We already have had the first coffins come home. We DO consider them hero's.

We also had several other coffins here a short while ago. About 2300 of them and that was placed on our doorstep. If you want to "talk" and "reason" with these folks go ahead. Just don't expect any sympathy when you find your concessions keep getting larger until you need their permission to live. Perhaps they will be satisfied running your economy and having their "security" forces "helping you".

Ask the Brits about gaining concessions. They have a bit of experiance in it.

[straffo]

Sure  Funked I hope it's that...

Now the problem if it's true : Imagine you're in the position of the German/French you are allied with US & UK but not considered equal(*) ?

You would be pissed in such circonstances no ?


Now if it's not that GWB (not the USA I make a subtil distinguo) will loose all credibility(**), we are waiting for the proof since what ? 6 month ?


My final word will be :
if the proof are here spank Saddam  to death else "status quo" he gonna die sooner or later and his succession promise to be quite spectacular


(*)I would have said "thruthworthy" but I'm too tired to lookup this word in a dictionnary

(**)Imagine how it would be easy for the Al-Quaida like to start a recruiting campaign after such an outcome ??

[Dowding]

About 2300 of them and that was placed on our doorstep. If you want to "talk" and "reason" with these folks go ahead.

So the Iraqis were behind 911. And there was me thinking this guy Bin Laden had something to do with it... I guess that's last years news.

0 Iraqis were on the Sept 11th flights.

0 evidence for links between Saddam and Al Queda (CIA and British Intelligence both confirmed this recently)

0 Iraqis found in Afghanistan, considering they has an American on the Taliban side

So what was your point again?

[Habu]

The US dealt with the 9/11 terrorists. They established a link with Bin Laden and went after them in Afganistan.

The Iraq situation is the next step. Who are the rogue states that aid and abette terrorism? Who are the states most likely to give terrorists weapons capable of killing large numbers of people? (Who tried to kill George Bush). Who is the crazed psycopath that gassed his own people and who threatened to bring the whole middle east to war?

Yes Iraq is right now the second biggest target on the radar. The Taliban and Bin Laden were the biggest. Are they the last? I have a feeling if North Korea does not come round and renounce its nuclear weapons program then it will be next.

The events of 9/11 are linked to the present Iraq situation in that they opened the eyes of the US and showed it no longer had the luxury of hideing its head in the sand and ignoreing the riseing threat of rogue states and terrorists.

Now that they have taken action they are not about to stop half way.

[JBA]

You gotta love this Aussie!

You probably missed it in the rush of news last week, but there was actually a report that someone in Pakistan had published in a newspaper an offer of a reward to anyone who killed an American, any American.

So, an Australian dentist wrote the following to let everyone know what an American is, so they would know when they found one.

"An American is English, or French, or Italian, Irish,

German, Spanish, Polish, Russian, or Greek. An American

may also be Canadian, Mexican, African, Indian, Chinese, Japanese, Australian, Iranian, Asian, or Arab, or

Pakistani, or Afghan. An American may also be a Cherokee, Osage, Blackfoot, Navaho, Apache or one of the many

other tribes known as native Americans.

An American is Christian, or he could be Jewish, or

Buddhist, or Muslim. In fact, there are more Muslims

in America than in Afghanistan. The only difference is

that in America, they are free to worship as each of them chooses. An American is also free to believe in no religion.

For that, he will answer only to God, not to the government,

or to armed thugs claiming to speak for the government

and for God.

An American is from the most prosperous land in the

history of the world.
The root of that prosperity can be found in the Declaration

of Independence, which recognizes the God-given right of

each man and woman to the pursuit of happiness.

An American is generous. Americans have helped out

just about every other nation in the world in their time

of need. When Afghanistan was overrun by
the Soviet army twenty years ago, Americans came with

arms and supplies to enable the people to win back their

country. As of the morning of September 11, 2001,

Americans had given more than any other nation to the

poor in Afghanistan.

Americans welcome the best -- the best products,

the best books, the best music, the best food, the

best athletes. But they also welcome the least.
The national symbol of America, The Statue of Liberty,

welcomes your tired and your poor, the wretched

refuse of your teeming shores, the homeless,
tempest-tossed. These, in fact, are the people who

built America.

Some of them were working in the Twin Towers the

morning of September 11, earning a better life for

their families. I've been told that the World
Trade Center victims were from at least thirty other
countries, cultures, and first languages -- including

those that aided and abetted the terrorists.

So, you can try to kill an American if you must. Hitler did.

So did General Tojo, and Stalin, and Mao, and every blood

thirsty tyrant in the history of the world. But, in doing so,

you would just be killing yourself, because Americans

are not a particular people from a particular place.

They are the embodiment of the human spirit and

freedom. Everyone who holds to that spirit,

everywhere, is an American.

[straffo]

Originally posted by Maverick
Straffo,

We already have had the first coffins come home. We DO consider them hero's.

We also had several other coffins here a short while ago. About 2300 of them and that was placed on our doorstep. If you want to "talk" and "reason" with these folks go ahead. Just don't expect any sympathy when you find your concessions keep getting larger until you need their permission to live. Perhaps they will be satisfied running your economy and having their "security" forces "helping you".

Ask the Brits about gaining concessions. They have a bit of experiance in it.

Warning : I'm not sure to fully undertand your post. (it's late here , I'm tired  ... I should be in my bed since 1 hour now ...)
Well no that you're warned  that my post will leack in the coherence departement


I think you confuse things (or GWB administration and the media are trying to confuse you dunno ...) I don't think Iraq as something to do with the WTC crime.

Historicly the founder of Al-Qaida were supported by a country were the local form of Islam was Wahabism a really dangerous form of Islam started at the begening of the 20th (just to a search on the web there is plenty of information availlable).

As you know the Muslim have like the christian some different "church" some are pacifist (truly !) some not ,some are very dangerous some were financiary supported by Saoudia ...
and USA will attack an enemy of Saoudia leaving this brunch of ass-hole medieval peasant continue to do their dirty bizness ... it piss me off

Btw from a Strategic point of view I do understand  the game played by the USA : get Iraqi Oil to lower Oil cost and so kill ecomicly Saoudia (it's bad to start war with an allied )

But why has GWB started to use UN ?
He should have started a war on his own and this war should have been won since a long time ... a kind of politic "du fait accomplie"

Instead he idiotly choose the use UN (expecting a plebiscite I guess) but due to the way the beast work he is now prisonner of his own tactic .... he played ... he lost .

[JBA]

By not supporting the UN resulution. Germany, France and the rest of the anti-american protesters have left the US with one choice. To invade Iraq and establish a regime change. If These two countries, and you are the minority in this matter, 22 countries have agreed to help, 8 in Europe, would show a strong united front then maybe, just maybe Saddem would look for exile. But he dosn't see that he has to when FRANCE and GERMANY are helping to defend him and make his case agains regime change.