Author Topic: The Stop Gap Japanese Plane set solution (Read 2041 times)

J_A_B · « **Reply #45 on:** February 10, 2003, 11:53:53 PM »

Of course, there's a lot of other planes in AH which outclass the F6F on paper, yet the F6F holds up perfectly well (things like the Spit 9 and LA5 and N1K2 come to mind).

The F6F's biggest assets n the MA are IMO its carrier availability, durability, diving ability, big ammo load and versatile nature. It's an example of an airplane that is "greater than the sum of its parts".

I wish we had a Ki-84; then we could do late-war pacific setups that are actually somewhat fair.

J_A_B

Karnak · « **Reply #46 on:** February 11, 2003, 01:28:27 AM »

J_A_B,

I agree that the F6F-5 is a great fighter in AH. I simply disagree with Frogm4n's comment, and Shuckin's backing of it, that they are all just cannon fodder for F6Fs.

Vermillion · « **Reply #47 on:** February 11, 2003, 09:54:01 AM »

When the Ki-84 is introduced to AH, it will immediately become one of the top three or four fighters. Its that good. And thats when it is modeled with the 80 ish octane fuel.

It won't be the fastest, but fast on the deck, excellent climbrates, above averaging turning ability, and good guns with plenty of ammo. But it most likely will not be perked ( unless Pyro has been hitting the crack again

). Just expect a well rounded plane.

Oldman731 · « **Reply #48 on:** February 11, 2003, 12:59:54 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by brady
I think if memory serves only the Germans were truley anal about it to the point that their claims are never realy disputed

*cough* ...um...there are some of us who realy dispyute thoze Gyrmyn clayms, Brady. Nawt in thys thred, thoa.

- oldman

Rasker · « **Reply #49 on:** February 12, 2003, 01:28:01 AM »

how about this, Ki-84 (unperked) with 88 octane fuel, or perked with the good stuff

Btw, does anyone know if/where the postwar USAAF evaluations are online?

Rasker · « **Reply #50 on:** February 12, 2003, 01:42:26 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Shuckins
I find it a little difficult to believe that a single pilot could take on six sections, 12 aircraft, flown by well-trained pilots and shoot down four of them and still live to tell about it.
Regards, Shuckins

from http://www.kotfsc.com/aircraft/n1k1.htm :

The Shiden Kai was to become perhaps the best all-round fighter to be operational in the Pacific theatre. It was fast, powerful, and maneuverable, and was well-armed and armored. In the hands of an experienced pilot, the Shiden-Kai was the equal of any Allied fighter, even the later models of the P-51 Mustang which began to appear over Japan in the spring of 1945. In one notable action, on February 16 1945 over Yokohama, Warrant Officer Kinsuke Muto of the 343rd Kokutai in an N1K2-J single-handedly battled a dozen F6F Hellcats. He shot down four of them before the rest were forced to break off combat and return to their carrier.

Karnak · « **Reply #51 on:** February 12, 2003, 02:47:45 AM »

Rasker,

That is a well discredited encounter. It never happened.

The N1K2 was very good, but some author somewhere created that encounter.

As to the fuel of the Ki.84, I do not think it should be modeled in any way with the US 100 octane fuel as it never fought with that fuel (unless it was post war in Chinese or French service).

devious · « **Reply #52 on:** February 12, 2003, 07:55:10 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Karnak
Rasker,

As to the fuel of the Ki.84, I do not think it should be modeled in any way with the US 100 octane fuel as it never fought with that fuel (unless it was post war in Chinese or French service).

I don't think so - mechanical reliability isn't modeled, too. Maybe Japanese fuel was bad at the end of the war, but Knit/Rook/Bishland fuel is just fine, unless HTC gets fuel quality connected to bombed fuel refineries...

brady · « **Reply #53 on:** February 12, 2003, 08:09:38 AM »

The George is curently modeled with the lower octain fuel, I am shure HTC will model the Ki 84 with the same fuel, the fuel it would of operated on historicaly, just like all the other planes in AH.

Widewing · « **Reply #54 on:** February 12, 2003, 12:31:19 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Shuckins
Such shootdowns of American aircraft by Japanese pilots late in the war were a rarety. Total Hellcat losses to enemy action were less than 300 during the two years that the F6F was committed to combat. Japanese pilots were known to "cook the books" a little when claiming victories. I find it a little difficult to believe that a single pilot could take on six sections, 12 aircraft, flown by well-trained pilots and shoot down four of them and still live to tell about it. Even Saburo Sakai admits that some of his compatriots were prone to boast wildly about the number of kills that they had achieved.

In my research of the SWPA, I have found that the Japanese sometimes over-claimed by an order of magnitude.

Typical instances are:

Claimed 8, killed 0
Claimed 22, killed 1
Claimed 13, killed 2
Claimed 44, killed 6
Claimed 9, killed 1

In the above engagements, American and RAAF pilots also over- claimed.

Claimed 6, killed 3
Claimed 17, killed 12
Claimed 5, killed 4
Claimed 19, killed 16
Claimed 3, killed 3

So, the Japanese claimed 96, but only shot down 10.
Allied pilots claimed 50, but only shot down 38.
Japanese pilots claimed 9.6 kills for each actual kill.
Allied pilots claimed 1.32 kills for each actual kill.

In Burma and China, the JAAF claimed to have shot down 143 AVG Tomahawks. Oddly enough, the AVG entered combat with only about 82 aircraft (100 arrived in Rangoon, one was dropped off the dock, 17-18 were destroyed in training accidents). Total losses to enemy aircraft were just 12. 143/12 = 11.9/1

All engagements are randomly selected and took place in 1943, involving IJN, JAAF, USAAF, USN and RAAF units.

Today, most Japanese historians have reduced the score of their pilots by about 40-50%. Some western historians suggest that a 75% reduction would be closer to reality.

Another interesting area to look at is the brief war between the Soviet Union and Japan in the late 1930s. Here the Soviets over-claimed by a factor of 4, the Japanese by a factor of 6.

By the way, of all Allied aircraft encountered, Japanese pilots feared the F6F Hellcat the most, followed closely by the P-38.

My regards,

Widewing

FDutchmn · « **Reply #55 on:** February 12, 2003, 07:54:06 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Karnak
(unless it was post war in Chinese or French service).

eh? Chinese and French were using IJN and IJA planes after the war? I have read that the Thai Airforce was using Oscars. I assumed that they purchased them during the war... but where do they get the parts for maintenance?

brady · « **Reply #56 on:** February 12, 2003, 09:15:45 PM »

This is true Dutchman, The French even rearmed some Japanese prisioners of war in Indochina to help them fight the Commies briefely after WW2 ended. I beleavey got the parts from stuff lying around.

brady · « **Reply #57 on:** February 12, 2003, 09:29:43 PM »

Chinise Oscar postwar:

oboe · « **Reply #58 on:** February 14, 2003, 01:30:22 AM »

Jester · « **Reply #59 on:** February 14, 2003, 02:27:56 AM »

I agree that when we get the KI-84 FRANK it will become a real force to be reconded with. I hope this will drive up the numbers flying Japanese during the PTO events in the CA. They need it.

It is also academic argueing about "Which Gas" the flight model will be modeled on. It didn't have US gas when it flew during combat so it shouldn't have it in here. It should use the 88 Octaine Japanese gas. Plain Common Sense.

NOTE on US gasoline during WW2: While AV GAS was generally rated at 100% Octaine and that's what the a/c engines were rated at. However most gas was way above that rateing up to as much as 150% Octaine. My Grandfather worked at a refinery and passed this info on to me.