The Stop Gap Japanese Plane set solution

[brady]

Much debate has been going on lately with regard to PAC plane set's and Just what Japanese planes should be added. I beleave with Just two new planes( perhaps 3) and Two Varents, we could do much for the Japanese side and still be able to squease in anothe US ride,not that I think we nead another New US ride but their are many who want this so It may be ineavatble. Personaly I would rather see some a few Early War US Varients than say a P39 but one never know what's coming. So hear is the solution imo to the Japanese issue, trying to keep it as simple as possable and theirfore doable:

 We realy Nead an A6M3 for our Solomns era setings in the CT, the added firpower of the Type 99MK II cannon with 100 rpg will realy help balance things out's air to air(as much as we could hope for), also it's improved High spead handeling traits will help the Japanese players manuaver at spead a bit better.

The Oscars would be nice to"flesh out" the plane set but their extreamly light aramement of only two 12.7mm Ho-103 mg's will make them Hanger Quees I think.

From a players prespective, looking at the plane list in the Virtual hanger the following would be most helpfull for a 42/43 slot/New Gunine Japanese plane set.

Ki 45, While I would personaly prefer to see the Ki 102, the Ki 45 would add much in the way of firpower to the Japanese plane set's for the CBI and SWPA in late 42 and 43.

Ki-61-1b,The Tony saw service entry along the North coast of New Gunnie in early 43, a good model to be included would be the one with the 20mm MG 151's cannons, as apposed to the 4 12.7mm MG's This early model of the Tony would make for a Very Nice Early War Japanese Army Fighter, much more servicable for the average player than the Oscar. With this adation we could get away from using the later model Tony we curently have and thusly avoid having to place out of place US machines in our Early war Slot set up's in the CT.

H8K, This would add so much I cant even begine to cover it's coolness.

I mentioned the A6M3 above.

D4Y2, small detchaments of the D4Y2 begaine to be placed on Japanese Cariers in the Autom of 42. This would Give the Japanese side a very Usefull Tool, the fastest Carier born Dive Bomber Of WW2 and a truly Fantastic airplane, it would add much to their arsenal.

Realy If we got the A6M3, the D4Y2, the early Tony and a Ki 45, all would well and good for the early Pac Plane set balance wise, while I like the Oscar it would not help anything in terms of plane set balance and would be little used, those 4 planes would all see much use.

For the Later War Perioud:

I would Skip the Jake, It was in all respect's inferiour to the George, and the Japanese Navy basicaly canceled it in Favore of the George, they are also prety much in the same time frame.

Obviously a Ki 84 is a must.

If we get a later model D4Y2, that could bridge the gap between late war and early war this would be great, since this plane is primarly a Ground/ship atack weapon using a later model would not be a big issue and it would kill two birds with one stone.

A Grace would be imo the Best all around late war Japanese Strike platform to hope for, great speead, Handeling aramamnt and a usefull bombload make this plane the only logical choice.

A Ki 102 would be nice as well.

Realist whishfull thinking would reduce this list to the Ki 84, and the Grace, for late war.

Over all best Choice for :

1 Japanese plane added: Ki 84 (politics it is wanted bad)

2 Japanese Planes added: Ki 84, A6M3

3 Japanese Planes added: Ki 84,A6M3,D4Y2

4 Japanese Planes added:ki 84, A6M3,D4Y2,Ki 61-1b

I cant even begin to hope for more than that in the next Vershion.

[brady]

A note on Bombers, adding any Japanes bombers(other than a H8K), presently without adding the approparate Allied equilvent bombers for the same time perioud, would do more harm than good. Presently a crazy parity existes in the Bomber relm for PAC set up's. Allied Bombers are very tough and fast and extreamly well armed since they are mostly much later models than what the A6M2 would of seen in theater at this tme. For the Japanese Peggy the same is true in part, it is faster than most allied fighters that would be time approparate for the Slot and New Gunnie(except the F4U-1), and has a decent defensive aramament, comperable in the rear quarter to that wich the Betty could muster. The Peggy is prety easy to kill if you get in gun range with US 50cal weapons, as was the Betty, granted it is not the torch the Betty was it is still easy to kill. Realy the Allies have it much better in the I want to kill that Buff Catagory, presently, than the Japanese do.

So in Short I presently want no New Buff's for Japan as their production time would sap time away from the more presing issues, of the Magic 4:

A6M3,Ki 84, Ki61-1b,D4Y2....and the Ki 45 I know I said 4 but I have a big apatite:)

[oboe]

Brady!

I wonder how long it takes to bring an AH 1.11 aircraft model up to AH2 specs?    

It doesn't seem unreasonable to me that all of the artists' time between now and October could be spent with this task - leaving AH2 to debut with the current planeset only.   I think its possible that any new Japanese planes might not arrive until 1.13, which could be more than a year away.

What a dark speculation...I hope its not true.   But I have to consider, if Pyro thought these planes were important enough to be in the game, then that's where they'd be.   He's had to make to some tough calls WRT plane selection.  I don't envy his position at all.

What I would like to see, instead of lists of Japanese planes the players would like to see, is the list of Japanese planes Pyro is planning to add, and when.

[FDutchmn]

No, NO, NO! Brady!  You have not been listening to our pleas!

Ki-61-1-Ko (Ki-61-1a) = 7.7mm machine guns (Type 89)  X 2, 12.7mm machine guns (Ho-103) X 2
Ki-61-1-Otsu (Ki-61-1b) = 12.7mm machine guns (Ho-103) X 4
Ki-61-1-Hei (Ki-61-1c) = 20mm cannons (MG 151) X 2, 12.7mm machine guns (Ho-103) X 2
Ki-61-1-Tei (Ki-61-1d) = 20mm cannons (Ho-5) X 2, 12.7mm machine guns (Ho-103) X 2

just by the variations of the armament... fuel tanks also changes...

Ki-61-1-Otsu (Ki-61-1b) does not carry 20mm cannons, but the Ki-61-1-Hei (Ki-61-1c) has the German 20mm, the Ki-61-1-Tei (Ki-61-1d) has the Japanese 20mm.

While the Ki-61-1-KAI is another name for the Ki-61-1-Tei, they are one and the same!  Can you see why the term "Ki-61-1-KAIc" is confusing?

For details refer to:
Petition to change the name of the Hien on AH
Info on the Ki-61

which reminds me... I need to punt!

[brady]

Oboe, I dont even want to begin to think about not geting any new planes in the Next release:), if it is that long I dont want to know, I also dont want to know what I am geting for Christmass:)

 FDutchmn, I want the earlest Model of the Tony with a 20mm cannon on it, my sources indicate that No Tony was made with a Ho-5 untill1944, while I much prefer the Japanese 20mm to the German 20mm MG 151, the MG 151 was available much earler, my source indicates that it was available about the same time as the Four 12.7mm Ho 103 was. At any rate this is the plane(the Early Tony, either with 4 12.7mm MG's or two and the 20mm MG 151 cannons) That I would like to see added instead of the Oscar, whatever it is realy called as you say is somewhat confusing.

[FDutchmn]

Originally posted by brady
FDutchmn, I want the earlest Model of the Tony with a 20mm cannon on it, my sources indicate that No Tony was made with a Ho-5 untill1944, while I much prefer the Japanese 20mm to the German 20mm MG 151, the MG 151 was available much earler, my source indicates that it was available about the same time as the Four 12.7mm Ho 103 was. At any rate this is the plane(the Early Tony, either with 4 12.7mm MG's or two and the 20mm MG 151 cannons) That I would like to see added instead of the Oscar, whatever it is realy called as you say is somewhat confusing.

I know, I know, I know!

Our friends like Mitsu and Sekiji agree that the Ki-61-I-Hei, the c variant, is probably the best performing Ki-61!  The one with the German 20mm.

ahhhhh... just on ya case for the naming

[brady]

CC, It took me a long to comprehend the intrices of Japanes aircraft names, it still hurts my head a bit, but I am geting most it down now:)

[Vladd]

I think the AH buff gun model may make the Betty rather more defensable here than it was IRL.

The Solomon islands campaign, for weeks / months on end, was carried on the Japanese side, by the G4M.  It's drawbacks, we all know. But a Solomons campaign without a proper Japanese medium bomber just doesn't seem right to me. And if it's only really used in scenarios, well, it would hardly be the only such a/c in the game.  

I'd add it as #2 on the list, after the Ki84.


Vladd

(Hoping vainly that this discussion isn't totally academic )

[Arlo]

Ok ...ok ... I'm shocked and amazed. Dammit.

(Teaches me to not read the whole bloody BB foist)

Originally posted by brady
Much debate has been going on lately with regard to PAC plane set's and Just what Japanese planes should be added. I beleave with Just two new planes( perhaps 3) and Two Varents, we could do much for the Japanese side and still be able to squease in anothe US ride,not that I think we nead another New US ride but their are many who want this so It may be ineavatble. Personaly I would rather see some a few Early War US Varients than say a P39 but one never know what's coming. So hear is the solution imo to the Japanese issue, trying to keep it as simple as possable and theirfore doable:

 We realy Nead an A6M3 for our Solomns era setings in the CT, the added firpower of the Type 99MK II cannon with 100 rpg will realy help balance things out's air to air(as much as we could hope for), also it's improved High spead handeling traits will help the Japanese players manuaver at spead a bit better.

The Oscars would be nice to"flesh out" the plane set but their extreamly light aramement of only two 12.7mm Ho-103 mg's will make them Hanger Quees I think.

From a players prespective, looking at the plane list in the Virtual hanger the following would be most helpfull for a 42/43 slot/New Gunine Japanese plane set.

Ki 45, While I would personaly prefer to see the Ki 102, the Ki 45 would add much in the way of firpower to the Japanese plane set's for the CBI and SWPA in late 42 and 43.

Ki-61-1b,The Tony saw service entry along the North coast of New Gunnie in early 43, a good model to be included would be the one with the 20mm MG 151's cannons, as apposed to the 4 12.7mm MG's This early model of the Tony would make for a Very Nice Early War Japanese Army Fighter, much more servicable for the average player than the Oscar. With this adation we could get away from using the later model Tony we curently have and thusly avoid having to place out of place US machines in our Early war Slot set up's in the CT.

H8K, This would add so much I cant even begine to cover it's coolness.

I mentioned the A6M3 above.

D4Y2, small detchaments of the D4Y2 begaine to be placed on Japanese Cariers in the Autom of 42. This would Give the Japanese side a very Usefull Tool, the fastest Carier born Dive Bomber Of WW2 and a truly Fantastic airplane, it would add much to their arsenal.

Realy If we got the A6M3, the D4Y2, the early Tony and a Ki 45, all would well and good for the early Pac Plane set balance wise, while I like the Oscar it would not help anything in terms of plane set balance and would be little used, those 4 planes would all see much use.

For the Later War Perioud:

I would Skip the Jake, It was in all respect's inferiour to the George, and the Japanese Navy basicaly canceled it in Favore of the George, they are also prety much in the same time frame.

Obviously a Ki 84 is a must.

If we get a later model D4Y2, that could bridge the gap between late war and early war this would be great, since this plane is primarly a Ground/ship atack weapon using a later model would not be a big issue and it would kill two birds with one stone.

A Grace would be imo the Best all around late war Japanese Strike platform to hope for, great speead, Handeling aramamnt and a usefull bombload make this plane the only logical choice.

A Ki 102 would be nice as well.

Realist whishfull thinking would reduce this list to the Ki 84, and the Grace, for late war.

Over all best Choice for :

1 Japanese plane added: Ki 84 (politics it is wanted bad)

2 Japanese Planes added: Ki 84, A6M3

3 Japanese Planes added: Ki 84,A6M3,D4Y2

4 Japanese Planes added:ki 84, A6M3,D4Y2,Ki 61-1b

I cant even begin to hope for more than that in the next Vershion.

[brady]

Vladd, I would love to see the Betty as well, but I am not willing to pay the price for her adation. A buff like the Betty would take up a ton of time from HTC, I have been told bombers can take up the same time as 3 or 4 fighter planes.

 Also adding the early G4M would creat serious bomber balance isues for the CT and she alone would not help plabalance at all, allied bomber types that were actualy in theritor would nead to be added to counter her. I know it sounds insane but it is true. If the only argument is one for imershion then plug in the Peggy and sub away, just like we do with all those late war US bombers for evey event under the sun, heck I was so hoared out using the B26 for this that and everything else in the CT I cant get mediclal coverage.

 In a perfect world having a Early war Japanes bomber and a late war model would be great, same as the German bomber issue, Russian, ect.

[Viper17]

How about the Ki-100 brady. considered by many to be the finest japanese fighter of the war.

[brady]

I thought about it, but the Ki 84 is better, and so popular in the I want it I want it I want it catagory, that it is hard to compeat aganst. I tryed to think of planes that would be easy for HTC to do, like the two Varients(one Zero Varient and one Tony Varient) and then just a decent strike plane that would span a big time frame like the Juddy( and Ki 45), the only realy New fighter is the Ki 84, this way no new fighter production is going to fill the early war planeset just two varients the fighter is for the MA, and not so much the CT. The Juddy is for both since it is a Carier plane, the Ki 45 could find use in the MA to I think.

[Viper17]

Those are good reasons. But we could have an early model Ki-100 the one that utilizes our current Ki-61 frame. I do agree that a Hamp is a good idea.

[Karnak]

Viper,

The problem with the Ki.100 is that it didn't enter service until after the N1K2-J, about March of 1945 I think, was built in tiny numbers, and the top speeds I've seen reported for it were 336mph and 360mph, slower than the N1K2-Jand Ki.61-I-KAIc and maybe slower than the A6M5b.

The Ki.84 entered service in April of 1944, was built in massive (by Japanese standards) numbers and had a top speed of about 400mph.

The Ki.84 would be better in the MA and more useful in senarios and CT setups.

As far as I know the only reason the Ki.100 was considered that good was because it was reliable, something not modeled in AH.

[brady]

Viper, Aside from the points that Karnak put up the only, and perhaps the main reasion i would still favor the early Tony over a later one is that virtualy all special events and CT set up's using the PAC plane set are 42/43 related, and presently we have only one Japanese fighter to field aganst 5 allied ones, of the two possable Japanese Army fighters(excluding the KI 45) Available at this time in the SWPA the Oscar and the Tony, the later is certainly the best choice for reasions mentioned above, and our nead is so big hear.