Author Topic: My take on all this  (Read 908 times)

Offline Hortlund

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My take on all this
« on: February 11, 2003, 03:08:18 AM »
I think it's good.

First, I think Hans Blix will come before the security counsel on Valentines day and say something along the lines of "The Iraqis are being more cooperative, but they have not yet given us the evidence we require. We need more time."

I think the US and UK will call for a new resolution, a war resolution.

I think the French/Germans/Russians will block that resolution. Maybe they will come up with some resolution about increasing the number of inspectors with 300%, maybe they will come up with some idea of UN peace keepers on the ground in Iraq. The US and UK will veto that one.

Then I think the US will go to war on Iraq. I think some other nations like UK, Canada, Turkey (maybe other nations like Italy, Spain or Hungary, Poland will join too in a more passive role) will join that war. Partly because it is a just cause, partly because of US diplomatic pressure.

This would mean nothing less than the death of the UN, and the return of 18-19th century geo-politics. Which is good since the whole UN idea is totally screwed anyway.

The French part in all this is really interesting. Right now France is attempting a role in power play that is well beyond its actual size.
There is only one superpower right now, but the French are trying to play hardball anyway. It will come back in their face. While a war-reluctant public opinion in Europe may think France is doing something noble and good, public opinion is a fragile ground to build your policy on.

For example, something that has been quietly overlooked by European media lately is exactly what the French oil interests in Iraq look like. It seems really popular to say that the US is going to war with Iraq over oil, but what about the french?

In 2001 French trade with Iraq was worth $1.5 billion, more than any other European nation, and trailing only behind Egypt and Russia. That number has grown in 2002. The French oil giant TotalFinaElf has the largest position in Iraq, with exclusive negotiating rights to develop Majnoon, a field on the Iranian border with estimated reserves of 10 billion barrels, and Bin Umar, with an estimated production potential of 440,000 barrels a day.

(note, when researching this post, I came across this quote:
"At Peugeot, a spokeswoman said the company delivered 500 cars to Iraq in the first half of the year under the oil-for-food program, about the number it delivered annually before the Gulf War." ...wtf has cars got do do with oil for food? I think this speaks volumes about the efficency of the sanctions.)

Iraq contains 112 billion barrels of proven oil reserves, the second largest in the world (behind Saudi Arabia) along with roughly 220 billion barrels of probable and possible resources. Iraq’s true potential may be far greater than this, however, as the country is relatively unexplored due to years of war and sanctions. Deep oil-bearing formations located mainly in the vast Western Desert region, for instance, could yield large additional oil resources (possibly another 100 billion barrels), but have not been explored.

Right now French and Russian companies are sitting on the concession rights for this oil. Is it then so strange that the French want to see the current Iraqi government remain in place? After all, if the Americans come in and throw Saddam and his thugs out, these hard bought oil rights will be worth nothing.

Is it really that surprising to see France and Russia agreeing on a policy that will call for more inspectors, even UN peace keepers, but will allow the current regime to remain in place? Is it really that surprising that the two nations most strongly opposing the current sanctions against Iraq are France and Russia? (In addition, Iraq has a pre-91 debt of $8 billion to Russia for previous arms deliveries).

The French position is not motivated by some idealistic concerns for the Iraqi population, it is not motivadet by some desire for peace. Good old fashioned greed is motivating the French policy.

Offline Monk

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« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2003, 03:45:12 AM »
Hehehe....Touche;)

Offline Dowding

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My take on all this
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2003, 03:58:32 AM »
Quote
This would mean nothing less than the death of the UN, and the return of 18-19th century geo-politics. Which is good...


Yes, we all know how peaceful and bloodless those particular centuries were - they are ideal models for how the world should be run.

War after war after war after war... leading up to a huge tangled web of irretrievably complex alliances, which meant that some piss-poor excuse for the instigation of hostilities became a casus belli for a conflict that raged around the world and killed millions upon millions of people.

Yeah, that would be a worthwhile step 'back to the future'.

That damned evil UN, eh? In the style of Grunherz:

"DETH TO UN BIG BROTHER NEW WORLD ORDER!"
War! Never been so much fun. War! Never been so much fun! Go to your brother, Kill him with your gun, Leave him lying in his uniform, Dying in the sun.

Offline Hortlund

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« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2003, 04:05:12 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Dowding
Yes, we all know how peaceful and bloodless those particular centuries were - they are ideal models for how the world should be run.

War after war after war after war... leading up to a huge tangled web of irretrievably complex alliances, which meant that some piss-poor excuse for the instigation of hostilities became a casus belli for a conflict that raged around the world and killed millions upon millions of people.

Yeah, that would be a worthwhile step 'back to the future'.

That damned evil UN, eh? In the style of Grunherz:

"DETH TO UN BIG BROTHER NEW WORLD ORDER!"

What no comment on my analysis of the French and their reasons for being anti-war?

ANYWAY
The UN is a bad idea because it has a general assembly that is worth zero. It doesnt do anything but produce alot of meaningless desicions and statements no one bothers to read anyway.

Then you have the security counsel which makes all the important desicions..in theory. In reality, the veto-powers can and will block any attempted action that goes against their interests, and since the veto powers combined interests pretty much covers any possible conflict in the world, the security counsel is about as effective as the (in)famous Polish mideaval parliament where everyone had a veto right.

In short, the UN doesnt work. International law doesnt work. Time to acknowledge that fact and move on.

Offline Naso

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« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2003, 04:08:27 AM »
An interesting point of view/analisis, indeed, Hortlund.

I disagree on the good of the end of UN, but the rest seem spot on to me.

Offline Monk

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« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2003, 04:28:32 AM »
.

Offline straffo

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« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2003, 05:02:57 AM »
The real point is :

WE DON'T AGREE AT ALL WITH THE USA PLAN TO SHARE IRAQI OIL AFTER THE WAR.

Capice ?

If the USA give us a larger share we will agree ASAP.
it's only real-politik nothing more nothing less .

If you do some research about Rwanda you will learn a lot of thinks ...
like why was the war started and what were the compagny exploiting Diamonds before and after the war.

Offline Hortlund

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« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2003, 05:11:42 AM »
I think it is simpler than that.

To put it bluntly:
Guess which two contries have the most Oil drilling contracts in Iraq?
France and Germany.

Guess which two nations Iraq owes Billions of Dollars in back weapons sales?
Russia and China.

Straffo, I'm glad to see I havent made it onto your ignore list just yet hehe

One question about Rwanda, can you please elaborate a bit more on the Diamond rights there? I always thought the Rwanda war was triggered by the animosity between the Hutus and the Tutsis. I cant remember which one was which, but the minority group had always been controlling the majority group due to higher education (everything is relative I suppose) and higher social status. i e the minority group were the politicians, the high ranking officers and the business men. Then for some reason, the majority group revolted and butchered the minority group.
Is this wrong?

Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2003, 05:13:38 AM »
NO PEACE FOR OIL!!!!!

Offline straffo

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« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2003, 05:13:46 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hortlund

Straffo, I'm glad to see I havent made it onto your ignore list just yet hehe

it depend of my workload and my mood
and Today I'll have a tons of build to do ... it's plain boring

Offline Monk

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« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2003, 05:24:38 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
NO PEACE FOR OIL!!!!!


hehe, I was just thinking that.

Offline bounder

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« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2003, 05:48:20 AM »
Well to listen to a lot of earlier comment on the BBS I had been led to believe the putative war was NOT about oil.

Remember, this war is not about oil it is about WMD.

Or was it Regime Change?

Somebody remind me.

Anyone in london on the 15th?

Offline Angus

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« Reply #12 on: February 11, 2003, 06:01:19 AM »
This all stinks and is seemingly coming to a bad stalemate.
My 2 cents on this:
The UN is somewhat screwed on the issue. The are heartily trying for peace, but getting screwed by Saddam in a similar way that Chamberlain got screwed by Hitler. It would be a time for the UN to start using bigger words, such as "U-2's MUST BE GRANTED A PASS", or "ANY PROVOCATION WILL RESULT IN IMMEDIATE COUNTERMEASURE". Saddam is trying to stall them into the summer, and has almost succeeded.
However, I don't quite see the US stance either. They want WAR, and they want it NOW. And meanwhile, skulking in the shadow, being quite a bit ahead of the Iraqi in terms of both missile and Nuclear technology, is N-Korea. Now that is one son-of-a-squeak, almost making Saddam look like a choirboy. Don't get it really, - I'd vote for a postpone on Saddam, and go right on to the next.
Anyway, Hortlund you have many good points. Apart from the silly one about the end of UN being a good thing. Are you hungover or what?
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Monk

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« Reply #13 on: February 11, 2003, 06:23:19 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Angus
It would be a time for the UN to start using bigger words, such as "U-2's MUST BE GRANTED A PASS", or "ANY PROVOCATION WILL RESULT IN IMMEDIATE COUNTERMEASURE".


.........Man, are you crazy?
The UN will pee on itself with that wording.;)

Offline straffo

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« Reply #14 on: February 11, 2003, 06:28:47 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hortlund

One question about Rwanda, can you please elaborate a bit more on the Diamond rights there? I always thought the Rwanda war was triggered by the animosity between the Hutus and the Tutsis. I cant remember which one was which, but the minority group had always been controlling the majority group due to higher education (everything is relative I suppose) and higher social status. i e the minority group were the politicians, the high ranking officers and the business men. Then for some reason, the majority group revolted and butchered the minority group.
Is this wrong?


It's not compleltly wrong it's just uncomplete :)
you forgot Zimbabwe Congo Angola  Burundi and Namibie in the equation :D (dont forget the Katanga region  aswell :))

I forgot the Zambie too :D