Mustard gas and Long range missles?

[Greese]

So the inspectors have now found mustard gas, and also discovered some of Iraq's missles go farther than allowed for defense?  

I have heard a blip or two, but can't find a whole lot about this.  Anyone know the whole story?  Is Iraq starting to comply or were these discovered?

[Habu]

Mustard gas is probably the least lethal WMD in Iraq's arsnel. It is not a threat at all. In WW1 it killed because it was released in massive clouds and there were no masks to guard against it initally. Now a relatively simple and primitive gas mask will provide adequate protection.

Nerve gas and germ warefare (anthrax) wareheads would be of much more concern.

As far as the missle range goes, I do not think that exceeding the 150 mile or km limit by 30 or 40 miles is any big deal. If you see them joining stages together on the missles then you should get worried.

It is normal when developing a missle to have target distances be exceeded by 10 or 20% when they are calibrating the propellent load.

All in all this is a non story.

[Saurdaukar]

Originally posted by Habu
(1)  Mustard gas is probably the least lethal WMD in Iraq's arsnel. It is not a threat at all. In WW1 it killed because it was released in massive clouds and there were no masks to guard against it intially. Now a relatively simple and primitive gas mask will provide adequate protection.

(2)  As far as the missle range goes, I do not think that exceeding the 150 mile or km limit by 30 or 40 miles is any big deal. If you seem then joining stages together on the missles then you should get worried.

(3)  All in all this is a non story.

(1)  Youre right - its just mustard gas - lets let him have it -  he'll only kill a few people.  Go read your history books if you need a refresher on how horrible mustard gas was and how "successful" primitive gas masks were in stopping it.

(2)  Right again.  Why make a ruthless dictator abide by post Gulf War UN sponsored weapons capability limitations.  Hell, maybe if we wait long enough Germany will sell them multi-stage rockets.

(3)  People ask for proof of chemical and biological weapons... then deem mustard gas as a "non-issue."  Ok, right...

[Habu]

Originally posted by Saurdaukar
(1)  Youre right - its just mustard gas - lets let him have it -  he'll only kill a few people.  Go read your history books if you need a refresher on how horrible mustard gas was and how "successful" primitive gas masks were in stopping it.

(2)  Right again.  Why make a ruthless dictator abide by post Gulf War UN sponsored weapons capability limitations.  Hell, maybe if we wait long enough Germany will sell them multi-stage rockets.

(3)  People ask for proof of chemical and biological weapons... then deem mustard gas as a "non-issue."  Ok, right...

Mustard gas in a missle warhead would do squat. All you have to do is protect the mucas membranes and you will be fine in an attack. Simple gas masks are enough protection. Anthrax and Nerve gas require much more elaborate suits. The protective suit for these agents is not a practical means of protection.

The small difference in the range of the missles is  not worth making a big deal out of as it give the French and Germans an example of how everyone is over reacting.

There are big reasons to worry about Iraq. These are not them.

[ra]

Is it hot mustard, or that cheap yellow stuff?

[Hangtime]

"Pardon, saddam; you wouldn't have any of the grey poupon...?"

[SirLoin]

Originally posted by Greese
So the inspectors have now found mustard gas


How can we be sure this is not leftover stockpiles of mustard gas that the British didn't use up when they gassed thousands of Iraqis way back when?

[Udie]

1.  Is Mustard gas a chemical weapon?

2.  Is Mustard gas an illegal weapon by the geneva convention?

3. Was said Mustard gas declared back in December by irak?

Material breech,  yet again, but hey it's not a big deal.


With us or against us diddlyers,  I really don't think you want to be against us....

[Hades55]

With us or against us diddlyers,  I really don't think you want to be against us.... [/B][/QUOTE]

Well, its exactly this way of thinking and speaking who push your
allies far from you.
I dont mean you, you are obviously not the smarter American,
the problem is that this is the official policy of Usa.

Think about a new alliance between Europe Russia and maby
China. Think a lot because thats the point where the policy of
Usa push the other nations.
I want you understand that is not your allies who leave you alone.  It is you who push them far from you.

Know your history, and remember when you have win a war without the military and more the political support of your allies.
Diplomacy is an art which you dont even know that exists.
 
Your allies in europe are (or was) more near to you than you can
imagine. We all have grow up with loosy,lone ranger,manix &
hawai 5-0 We all have see the first steps of Armsrong on the
moon and all we was happy. ( nice days ).

You cant imagine how big damage in the image of Usa have done
only the last year policy of your goverment.
Have a nice day

[Maverick]

Mustard gas or agent is not only effective it is deadly. Using a mask is NOT a creditable defense against it, as it is skin permeable. Mustard gas is one name for a blister agent. it has effects on the skin alone much less the mucus membranes.

Putting it in a missle IS a big threat unless you feel very confident that you are not in the target zone. It is a true non discriminatory weapon. It affects all who come in contact with it long after it is released. Oh BTW it doesn't just disperse, it's a long term threat. There will be a residual effect as long as it is not chemically neutralized.

Those that have had no training in NBC (nuclear, chemical and biological) warfare should just STFU.

I have had training and this crap scares the bejeebus out of me.

It just cracks me up to see posts defending the dictator who has in the past actually used this stuff on his own people. Why the hell wouldn't he use it again? I suppose he is preferable to the U.S. in some folks eyes.

[Dowding]

It just cracks me up to see posts defending the dictator who has in the past actually used this stuff on his own people.

We knew all that but still kept selling him the stuff. Let's not get all moralistic about it now.

[Habu]

Mustard gas will blister the skin in Gaseous state if it is in high concentrations. A missile is not capable of delivering it in high concentrations over a large area. Mustard gas like all gas will disperse quickly in the atmosphere and can be next to useless if a wind is present. Anthrax however is much more effective if it does disperse in the wind.

As far as the Mucus membranes go if you get it to the mucus membranes then you have a good chance of killing the person. However if it gets on your skin it is far less lethal. Just because you get some nasty blisters on your skin does not mean you are going to die. Tear gas will cause much discomfort if it gets on your skin as well. But it is not considered lethal. It is the ability of the gas to kill large numbers of people that is the concern.

In WW1 they brought the gas to the trenches in tanks and let it out when the wind was right so a big cloud formed and moved slowly over the battlefield killing everything in its path. To achieve this effect the weather had to be perfect (a luxury you have when you are in a stalemate battle and can wait for the right conditions). However the same attack launched in a breeze that was too strong or in the wrong direction would have been next to ineffective.

How do you know that we have no experience in this area? Do not make assumptions. Military training on the effects of weapons such as mustard gas can be much less informed than looking a medical texts and WW1 era reports when the gas was in use in large quantities.

You know yourself that the level of knowledge that a private infantryman will absorb is much less than what say a medical officer will receive. Quite often they will show you horrible slides and say "This can happen to you if you do not take proper precautions" and then tell you the fail safe ways to protect yourself.

To compare the lethal effects of mustard gas with Anthrax just shows me how little you know. One is absolutely a nightmare compared to the other.

BTW I am basing my opinion on information I read in a very excellent book.

No Place to Run: The Canadian Corps and Gas Warfare in the First World War.

TIM COOK. Vancouver: UBC Press 1999. Pp. viii, 296, illus.

Mustard gas is nasty stuff in the right conditions but my conclusions after reading the book is that the right conditions are rarely present and if the other side takes precautions even when the gas is used it is not that effective. This was refected in the relatively low casulity rate for the weapon in major battles where it was used in shells.

It was most effective when it was released as an offensive weapon in perfect conditions than when it was released as a defensive weapon or when it was delivered by shelling.

[batdog]

Well..if they have the ablity to deliver one type of gas. What will prevent him from sending another..or for that matter a bio type warhead?

xBAT

[Maverick]

Habu,

You might have noticed that things have changed a bit since WW1.

Mustard gas is not a gas, it is a liquid and a persistant one at that. For inhalation purposes you need a vaporization effect like the book spoke about. After the vapors settle they still form a threat until chemically negated.

Dropping gas in a trench situation is not the most likely use of this stuff or have you forgotten the scuds dropped on Isreal. Dropping it on a trained military population with the facilities and training to survive it is one thing but that is not the most liely scenario. Ask the Japanese about their subway experiance. Cicilians will take a considerable number of casualties during and after any mustard gas attack as they are not trained and do not have the equipment to deal with it.

Just why are you so fond of this stuff anyhow? Why is it you don't seem to care that the one person who has the MOST experience using it in the last 30 years and has expressed no remorse over using it (VERY successfully I might add) only wants to get more and more means of delivering it?
 
BTW My info was much more recent than  a book about WW1. I went through the training and learned how to deal with it. Even with the proper gear the combat effectiveness of a unit under active chemical attack is considerably diminished.

What experiance have you had in NBC?

[Nashwan]

3. Was said Mustard gas declared back in December by irak?

AFAIK, the mustard gas they have "found" now is a batch of shells that were scheduled for destruction by UN arms inspectors back in the 90s, before the inspection regieme collapsed.

They are not a breach. If there is a different story, about new finds of mustard gas, it hasn't appeared on any news sources I have seen.