Author Topic: Biggest Display of Public Ignorance in British History  (Read 1144 times)

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #30 on: February 17, 2003, 10:06:55 AM »
we been had... blitz is airhead.
lazs

Offline blitz

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« Reply #31 on: February 17, 2003, 12:01:29 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by beet1e
Here they are, the anti war protesters...

My sentiments exactly. No calls for Saddam to stop torturing/murdering/starving. Totally blinkered fools. Sorry Bounder - it's just my opinion, but I feel strongly about it.

Full article here.


Srry beetle,

can't talk of other cities only from Berlin.
And there they were i asure you.

Regards Blitz

Offline Saurdaukar

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« Reply #32 on: February 17, 2003, 12:17:43 PM »
As much as I would like to join the good fight and argue alongside my "realist" Pro-war BBS buds, I cannot seem to muster anything more than grief after reading more senseless anti-war drivel that fails to make any significant point beyond "trees are good, war is bad, and youre a dumb babykiller."

Im so disgusted by the protests and the roadkill I read on this forum on a daily basis its a wonder Im not calling radio stations in my spare time in hopes of persuading the local population that they are, afterall, almost entirely composed of stupid genes.  

This conflict is necessary.  We elect officials in this country to act in our bests interests.  If you think Bush isnt acting in your best interests, you can speak at the next election and wait for the Republicans to adopt your popular tactic of obstructionist politics.  I dont understand why this is even open for debate.

This is what we are trying to avoid.



(Now hopefully Dowding will show up and try to get a rise out of me.)

Bomb them.

Offline Rasker

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« Reply #33 on: February 17, 2003, 12:28:41 PM »
I wonder how many of those marching this weekend also marched in the early 1980's against deployment of American "Pershing" missiles in Europe in response to the Soviet deployment of similar missiles.  Instead of following the demonstrators and forfeiting all leverage with the Russians, Reagan got the Russians to remove theirs by a credible threat of deploying ours.

Unfortunately, the stalemate in the Security Council appears to indicate that the chance of a UN use of force resolution is close to zero, which forfeits all leverage against Saddam and might deceive him into thinking that he can stay in power and avoid disarming.  That ain't gonna happen, and the U.N. waffling may only encourage resistance by Saddam and result in needless loss of life to soldiers and innocent bystanders.  In my view, Saddam has been on probation since '91, and probation is about to be revoked.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2003, 12:31:21 PM by Rasker »

Offline blitz

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« Reply #34 on: February 17, 2003, 12:28:56 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Saurdaukar
As much as I would like to join the good fight and argue alongside my "realist" Pro-war BBS buds, I cannot seem to muster anything more than grief after reading more senseless anti-war drivel that fails to make any significant point beyond "trees are good, war is bad, and youre a dumb babykiller."

Im so disgusted by the protests and the roadkill I read on this forum on a daily basis its a wonder Im not calling radio stations in my spare time in hopes of persuading the local population that they are, afterall, almost entirely composed of stupid genes.  

This conflict is necessary.  We elect officials in this country to act in our bests interests.  If you think Bush isnt acting in your best interests, you can speak at the next election and wait for the Republicans to adopt your popular tactic of obstructionist politics.  I dont understand why this is even open for debate.

This is what we are trying to avoid.



(Now hopefully Dowding will show up and try to get a rise out of me.)

Bomb them.



No need to demand, Bush will , whether you like it or not.


Regards Blitz


America is threathened by Iraq in no way

Offline Dowding

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« Reply #35 on: February 17, 2003, 01:52:34 PM »
Quote
Im so disgusted by the protests and the roadkill I read on this forum...


Yeah, me too. But I suspect for different reasons.

Quote
 its a wonder Im not calling radio stations in my spare time in hopes of persuading the local population that they are, afterall, almost entirely composed of stupid genes.


Oh, how thoroughly decent of you! How nice! Do please condescend to those of us not blessed with the intrinisic wisdom you apparently have. Although, you've hidden it very well so far, I'm quite prepared to be surprised.
War! Never been so much fun. War! Never been so much fun! Go to your brother, Kill him with your gun, Leave him lying in his uniform, Dying in the sun.

Offline Manedew

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« Reply #36 on: February 17, 2003, 02:15:05 PM »
Why do you think it's just euro protesting this war..... millions of americans were standing aginst this war on Sat.

Oh ya, we can no longer march .. yet another right they're bleeding away from us.  They had protestors pen'd up like 'cattle' in many citys and aressted many who didn't like thier pens... right here in the land of 'free' ::ahem::

Offline bounder

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« Reply #37 on: February 17, 2003, 03:06:28 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by beet1e
Here they are, the anti war protesters...

 

There was a very good opinion page in the Telegraph today. The first three paragraphs are here:

My sentiments exactly. No calls for Saddam to stop torturing/murdering/starving. Totally blinkered fools. Sorry Bounder - it's just my opinion, but I feel strongly about it.

Full article here.


As I do about mine beet1e. The point is we were marching on our parliament, not Bagdhad. We were marching in unprecedented numbers because we believe OUR government is not answering our reservations about committing British forces to war in Iraq.

And most if not all of the speakers condemned Saddam Hussein for his atrocities.

But our aim was to send a message to our government. Because we have a democratically elected government who are bound to listen to our objections as our elected representatives.

I can't understand why you think I am a totally blinkered fool. I believe an unquestioning attitude to our government's determination to send troops into combat for a multitude of undeclared reasons is blinkered.

And now Tony Blair, after once again denying regime change is the objective, is saying that if Saddam Hussein complies with disarmament, then he will be permitted to 'have his conventional weapons, his air force and his navy' and presumably to carry on his atrocities against the Iraqi people.

Tony's message changes every week, he can't get his story straight. There are reasons for war but he is serving up empty platitudes and moral pronouncements that he can't support instead.

I want to know what the real reasons are, and until I get some answers, I will oppose any British involvement in an invasion of Iraq.

And yet he claims this is a moral action. That's not just blinkered, that is utterly self contradictory.

Offline Puke

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« Reply #38 on: February 17, 2003, 03:40:42 PM »
Quote
1) GWB can't declare war on anybody. The American Congress does, and they haven't.  Originally posted by Seeker

I don't think we'll be seeing America declare war on anybody soon, unless it's gonna be a biggie.  The reason I think is because the wartime powers given to the president are too powerful and I don't see congress giving anyone that much power.  

Quote
I want to hear generals tell me how war is won, not draft dodgers. Why are the generals silent? What's the plan?; other than the apparant picking out of targets easy to sell to the American home public?  Originally posted by Seeker

You obviously don't have a clue about strategy.  

Saddam sued for peace after the Gulf War with terms under the surrender that weapons be catalogued and then proof be shown that those weapons were destroyed.  The proof has not been shown and thus Saddam has broken the terms of peace and thus we are at war again.  In fact, there is proof he has developed additional weapons.  In fact, there is proof he will back terrorists which are clear in their war with the West.  Just wait until Saddam can give the terrorists a really neat-O weapon.  And if you fear the safety of civilians, I am certain there will be less Iraqi civilian deaths in this war than there has been the past 5-years under Saddam's regime.  Saddam has made his bed and now he must lay in it and France and Germany better be frightened about this because when the USA overthrows Saddam, records of the regime will be perused and the world will learn that France and Germany have some very shady business dealings with Iraq.  Many of the dealings are already known and which are in direct violation of the UN.  It's gonna get very interesting.

Offline Sabre

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« Reply #39 on: February 17, 2003, 04:55:56 PM »
There are a couple of reasons I believe the US is pursuing the issue of Iraq.  We have seen numerous examples in the last ten years of the UN failing to take decisive action to prevent genocides and general racial or political oppression.  In case after case, in Yugoslavia, Africa, and the Middle East, dictators and thugs have gone about their criminal and often grizzly tasks of killing and oppression with little fear of intervention by an impotent United Nations.  Yes, impotent, and made so by the very diversity of culture, values, and national interests of the nations that belong to it.  My own belief is that President Bush decided to push the Iraqi issue to either finally make the UN relevant, or to prove it irrelevant and unworthy of further support by this country.  I believe he hoped the UN would just this once say, “Enough is enough,” and act decisively to remove Saddam from power.  If the UN could do this, and free the Iraqi people from his tyranny, then perhaps the next time it was challenged by a dictator or ethnic cleansing the mere threat of “decisive action” would actually give the perpetrators pause to reconsider their chosen course of action.

And it almost worked.  The US’ pledge to act with or without UN sanction resulted in the unanimous passage of UN resolution no. 1441 last November.  This was to be the Iraqi dictator’s last chance for cooperative disarmament, and promised “serious consequences” if he failed to comply fully and eagerly.  That, coupled with the US/UK military buildup forced the Iraqi despot to agree to 1441.  Does anyone out there believe for a moment that the UN would have enacted 1441 last November, or that Iraq would have accepted it, if George Bush (and PM Blair, who’s own support can not be understated in importance) had not made his speech to the UN…and backed it up by deploying forces to the region?  The problem of course is, once you commit to such a course of action you may be required to follow through on your pledge.  If you don’t, than no one will ever take you seriously again.  Unfortunately, it appears certain member nations of the Security Council don’t understand this.  Bush, however, does.

As we have seen, Baghdad immediately began testing the resolve of the Security Council.  When Blix made his first report to the Council, which in essence said that Iraq was not complying with resolution 1441, that was the point the UN could have averted the war I believe is just weeks away.  They could have joined together to declare Iraq in material breach, and passed a second resolution authorizing military action after a certain short deadline passed, giving Iraq only until then to change their attitude in dramatic and meaningful ways.  Saddam remembers the last time the UN issued a deadline, and another such decree might just have been taken more seriously than the French, German, and Russian battle cry, “give the inspectors more time.”  Saddam instead has seen the UN for what it.  He has continued to doll out empty promises and little dribbles of “apparent increases of cooperation” on the eve of each new report deadline.  In this way, Blix has been forced to qualify any negative aspects of his reports with words such as “possible change in attitude” and “signs of increased cooperation.”  Saddam knows full well that as long as he throws out these little tidbits, countries like France and Russia will greedily seize upon them to prevent the UN from acting.

Meanwhile, the Iraqi people continue to suffer at the hands of their own government, and other potential despots and tyrants are emboldened to forsake even the trappings of civilization, for who will stop them?

Why did President Bush choose Iraq for this litmus test of the UN?  First, the last ten years of Iraqi defiance of the UN was the firmest bedrock he could find to build a case on.  Second, the events of 9/11 woke up the world to what could happen if certain elements got a hold of WMD such as Iraq has most certainly been developing.  It highlights the threat Iraq posses to not only its neighbors, but to the world at large.  Third, maintaining the sanctions and no-fly zones on Iraq, are not only costly in and of themselves, but are also proving ineffective in forcing Iraq to reform itself.  How many thousands in Iraq have died at Saddam’s orders, or have suffered deprivations to build his palaces and rebuild his military and WMD arsenals.  Finally, both President Bush and to a great extent the American people see the whole Iraqi problem as unfinished business.

Blix has as much as stated that inspections will not result in a disarmed Iraq, if Iraq is intent on hiding WMD from the inspectors.  He has said specifically that more inspectors are not the answer.  Only if Iraq embraces the disarmament process, enthusiastically, publicly, and honestly as South Africa did, can there be any hope that inspectors will be able to verify Iraq if free of WMD.  There is no sign that Saddam intends to do so, so removing Saddam is the only way to end the suffering of Iraq while insuring that country is no longer a threat to world peace and stability.
Sabre
"The urge to save humanity almost always masks a desire to rule it."

Offline beet1e

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« Reply #40 on: February 17, 2003, 05:12:47 PM »
Damn good post, Sabre. I read it twice.  Thank you for joining my thread.  
:)

Offline Saurdaukar

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« Reply #41 on: February 17, 2003, 06:07:54 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Dowding

Oh, how thoroughly decent of you! How nice! Do please condescend to those of us not blessed with the intrinisic wisdom you apparently have. Although, you've hidden it very well so far, I'm quite prepared to be surprised.


Dowding, as always your posts fail to get any point across aside from those mentioned in the previous exchange.

And true to form, your words take on a sort of "N'Sync-ish" quality to them.  They light easily and grab attention from the little ones, but at the end of the day, lack any substance aside from hot air.

I dont think Im alone when I read that post and ask myself what is it, exactly, that you are trying to say?

If you examine the posts you attack, you will see that there are points, ideas,  and opinions.

When I read your posts, I see mindless, acidic banter without direction.  Sooner or later you will figure out that unless youre a Philosophy student, you cant get away such empty concepts.

Since we all know that you are violently opposed to any defensive action taken by the United States in Iraq or any other threatening power, I ask you to take a few minutes, compose yourself, maybe write out a rough draft first, and then tell us...

Why?

Offline Dowding

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« Reply #42 on: February 18, 2003, 03:31:51 AM »
I've only ever debated the issues with you Saudaurkar, up until that last post of yours. The part about 'enlightening' everyone through the light of some phone call to a radio station made me chuckle. Thanks.

Moreover, you object to criticism complaining that your posts contain 'points, ideas, and opinions'. Points like these:

"Im so disgusted by the protests and the roadkill I read on this forum on a daily basis..." (sic)

Nice points. Seems to me you have a problem with people disagreeing with your particular point of view. Such disagreement isn't an 'attack' in any way, shape or form. It's also 'roadkill' IN YOUR OPINION, an opinion you aren't prepared to qualify it seems.

Quote
Since we all know that you are violently opposed to any defensive action taken by the United States in Iraq or any other threatening power...


Defensive? I think the word your struggling for is 'pre-emptive'. Check their relative definitions - they definitely don't mean the same thing.

I've come to the position of opposing any action without a UN mandate.
War! Never been so much fun. War! Never been so much fun! Go to your brother, Kill him with your gun, Leave him lying in his uniform, Dying in the sun.

Offline beet1e

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« Reply #43 on: February 18, 2003, 04:36:11 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Saurdaukar
Since we all know that you are violently opposed to any defensive action taken by the United States in Iraq
I think the word you wanted was "vehemently". Just a seemingly small point, but perhaps relevant where potential conflict is concerned.

I have just read Sabre's post again (above). Definitely the best post I've ever read on this board, and any nagging doubts I ever had have now been dispelled.

Offline X2Lee

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« Reply #44 on: February 18, 2003, 06:17:22 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by bounder




I want to know what the real reasons are, and until I get some answers, I will oppose any British involvement in an invasion of Iraq.



OMG! Anything but that!
We cant do anything without you guys approval...