Author Topic: Do the Anti-War Protestors Realize...  (Read 2266 times)

Offline metronom

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Do the Anit-War Protestors Realize...
« Reply #30 on: February 16, 2003, 11:30:08 AM »
Quote:
"with 6 million peace protesters supporting saddam , he will never leave now, he thinks the whole world supports him and hates the USA oil mongers."

Why do you think if someone is protesting against this war is automaticaly an allied or friend of Saddam?
The world is not black&white only.

sailor

Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #31 on: February 16, 2003, 11:32:51 AM »
So how do we remove Saddam Hussein from power without al least a credible and visible threat of force. Since these degenerates rule out force they do in effect supportb the hussein government.

Offline bounder

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« Reply #32 on: February 16, 2003, 11:45:59 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
So how do we remove Saddam Hussein from power without al least a credible and visible threat of force. Since these degenerates rule out force they do in effect supportb the hussein government.


Your reasoning is risible.

The 'if you're not with us you are against us' false dichotomy is old hat, you need a new slogan.

Offline Rockstar

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« Reply #33 on: February 16, 2003, 11:56:28 AM »
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Do the pro-war factions realize that many germans compare the propaganda shows of Bush jr. with the Reichsparteitag-propaganda-shows of another stupid fanatic leader decades ago ?


If thats the case I'm very interested to know what those same 'many Germans' compare saddum to?

Offline -dead-

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« Reply #34 on: February 16, 2003, 11:57:48 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
Actually, I think the theory is that it would make biological, chemical and radiological agents less likely to be used in a terrorist attack against the US.
But the chances of avoiding another 9-11 by invading Iraq are still, realistically speaking, zero. Which runs counter to what Cabby seemed to imply. Indeed I would posit that it rather accelerates the chances of a 9-11 type incident. One of the many reasons I am against the invasion & regime change option as a method of disarming Iraq.
Quote
Although there is that case of "Islamicists" training on a Boeing 707 parked in Salman Pak from about 1995 to as recently as September 2000. Corroborated by two Iraqi defectors, Sabah Khalifa Khodada Alami and a former intelligence officer who defected in early 2001. Through a translator, Mr. Alami described, according to the Wall street Journal, a daily regimen of exercises on kidnapping, assassination, and -- using a Boeing 707 parked inside the complex -- how to hijack a plane or bus without weapons. He said that a separate group of non-Iraqis were being similarly trained by Saddam's intelligence service, the mukhabarat.
After September 11th, a private US satellite photo company, Space Imaging, went through its archives and found a photo that included a plane parked in the Salman Pak compound.
But I'm sure that's all bogus information and must be dismissed.
From your POV, of course.
I'm afraid so - I'm treating this whole affair like any messy squabble - neither the US nor the Iraqi governments can be trusted any futher than they can be spat.
How fortuitous that Space Imaging found that picture in their archive. That would be the same Space Imaging that sold all the exclusive rights to their stock of images of Afghan bomb damage to the pentagon, and the same company that just got a $120 million government mapping contract (with a five-year ceiling of $500 million) shortly after finding the archived picture, and no doubt in a squeaky clean vision of the US government, these incidents are all unrelated.
"It definitely is the largest contract we've received to date," said Gary Napier, of Space Imaging. "And that satellite imagery would be used for mapping any part of the world for the Dept. of Defense." Source
Nothing eldritch about that, I'm sure. OK, so the US Department of Defence has its own imaging satellites, but I'm sure they're all way too busy doing super crack elite secret stuff. And of course defectors wouldn't ever make up exciting stories just to get green cards and government allowances. (Or if you like your stories a bit more paranoid - CIA guy: "Go on TV and say this and we'll let you stay." Iraqi defector: "Sure. And the subscription to Penthouse?" CIA guy: "Lifetime guaranteed." Iraqi defector: "Where do I sign? I am ready for my close up now!") Hark at my cynicism, next I'll be be portraying these Iraqi defectors as turncoats or something! ;)
Sorry, but it sounds suspiciously like propaganda to me: so I'll take it with a large pinch of salt, same as the Iraqi position of "we ain't got nothing to hide".
I may be being overly cynical, but I have seen enough fights to not take either side's accusations of the other's evilness whilst maintaining their own "butter wouldn't melt" position at face value. Watch an episode of "People's Court" before you read or watch another thing about Iraq. It's nasty medicine, but it beefs the cynicism gland right up. ;)
I personally hope that the US & France are involved in a kind of good cop, bad cop routine on Iraq to get them to comply. I hope it works too. I hope it forces a few more countries to refrain from the proliferation of WMD, especially biological weapons (nudge, nudge). But I'm not sure how much of that nice fantasy scenario I believe. However: The invasion replacement plan is a dreadful political minefield, and the sort of thing that has lead to some of the worst sociopathic regimes of the last 50 years, a club in which Saddam could probably be included. And any government installed in Iraq would be instantly labelled a US puppet by the rest of the Arab world, and probably rightly so, which may lead to much worse trouble a decade on.
“The FBI has no hard evidence connecting Usama Bin Laden to 9/11.” --  Rex Tomb, Chief of Investigative Publicity for the FBI, June 5, 2006.

Offline -dead-

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« Reply #35 on: February 16, 2003, 12:03:32 PM »
BTW funked -  Anit-War Protestor?!? Shome mishtake shurely?
“The FBI has no hard evidence connecting Usama Bin Laden to 9/11.” --  Rex Tomb, Chief of Investigative Publicity for the FBI, June 5, 2006.

Offline blitz

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« Reply #36 on: February 16, 2003, 12:14:54 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Udie
with us or with the terrorist.....


 Rude and Toad,  yeah it was nice of the weasels to show us who they are.  One can only hope our government will take the propper action.  I see no reason why any german or frech products should be allowed in our country period. Sorry Rip no spare parts for you, though I'm sure somebody here could machine them.  Hell I'd be for freezing all thier assests and using them to pay off some bills.  And I see no reason why the UN should be in NYC, I think Paris is a much more fitting place for that debating society.



That's the problem in the relationship between America and ya european friends.
Europeans have the feeling that America is all to arrogant with us.
Are we partners or just mercenaries.
German special forces helped ya in afganisthan, don't they? And we helpin still there, our warships crussin next to Africa huntin terrorists, makin us a target to islam fanatics too and we like to do that but we can't always follow your ideas.

Regards Blitz


America is threathened by Iraq in no way, it's just plain rediculous.

Offline Toad

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« Reply #37 on: February 16, 2003, 12:15:41 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by -dead-
But the chances of avoiding another 9-11 by invading Iraq are still, realistically speaking, zero.


I think more "9/11's" are on the way whether we invade Iraq or not.

However, I DO believe that removing Saddam from power would be a benefit with respect to lessening the chances of anti-US terrorists getting some really effective chem or bio agents.


NSA has sat photos of the plane from US recon devices as well.

There's also a report that Charles Duelfer, the former vice chairman of Unscom, the U.N. weapons inspection team, who actually visited the Salman Pak camp several times saw the fuselage as well.

You can blow off the defectors if you like too. That's the easy way out for your side of the argument.



 
Quote
And any government installed in Iraq would be instantly labelled a US puppet by the rest of the Arab world, and probably rightly so, which may lead to much worse trouble a decade on.


It's always hard to get a new government installed, operational and having the confidence of the people it serves. No one said it would be easy. But is leaving Saddam in charge better?

It's been done before and quite successfully. By the US. Right after WW2.

We can all sit around and say "too hard"....... or we can give it our best shot.

All that said, I am still at the present time against invading Iraq. However, I do view it as ever more inevitable.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2003, 12:17:43 PM by Toad »
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Monk

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« Reply #38 on: February 16, 2003, 12:22:16 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by blitz
That's the problem in the relationship between America and ya european friends.
Europeans have the feeling that America is all to arrogant with us.
Are we partners or just mercenaries.
German special forces helped ya in afganisthan, don't they? And we helpin still there, our warships crussin next to Africa huntin terrorists, makin us a target to islam fanatics too and we like to do that but we can't always follow your ideas.

Regards Blitz


 
No, it's the way Adolf Schrder went about it, he could care less about the Iraqi people. he used it as a election issue, instead of the Germany economy.
 
Of course the friends he made in Congress isn't going to help his economy much.

Sorry, he is not much of a Diplomat, witch is why the German coalition is starting to split now.

Offline Vulcan

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« Reply #39 on: February 16, 2003, 12:29:30 PM »
"Iraq today greeted the global outpouring of opposition to a possible U.S.-led war, saying the rallies by millions of people signal an Iraqi victory and "the defeat and isolation of America."

Do the Anti-War protestors realize they are in fact encouraging war?

France and Germany stand strong against Bush, but why didn't they have the same courage to stand strong against Saddam?

History is amazing in hindsight, one mans war-protestors can be another mans path to war. It will be interesting to see what hindsight shows us.

Offline Udie

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« Reply #40 on: February 16, 2003, 12:31:55 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by blitz
That's the problem in the relationship between America and ya european friends.
Europeans have the feeling that America is all to arrogant with us.
Are we partners or just mercenaries.
German special forces helped ya in afganisthan, don't they? And we helpin still there, our warships crussin next to Africa huntin terrorists, makin us a target to islam fanatics too and we like to do that but we can't always follow your ideas.

Regards Blitz


America is threathened by Iraq in no way, it's just plain rediculous.



 We don't  want you to be mercenaries if that's what you would think you would be.  I can totaly see where German people would not want to go to any war, given your history.  France on the other hand are being total hypocrites.  They are Iraq's biggest business partner and THAT'S why they don't want him gone they stand to lose too much money, that to me is dispicable.  We just want you to get the diddly out of the way so that we can get this over with, with minimal loss of life.  The more you guys block this the more people die under his regiem.

 This whole thing isn't something new.  Part of Bush's campain was that he would deal with Iraq.  That's a need that's been there for 12 long years.  Our last president didn't do toejam but lob some missles over there for 8 years.  This should have been done in 98 when saddam kicked the inspectors out.  If we were doing this for diddlying oil it would have been done already. The irony of the whole stupid oil argument is that by blocking this you guys are making TONS of money for oil companies.  Oil prices will keep getting higher until this thing is over.  Another stupid argument is that this is "Bush's war"  That's utter roadkill.  There is a large chunck of the American people that get off on freeing countries from evil dictators it's kinda what we do.  That right there is the ONLY reason I support this and why I get so pissed at you damn saddam supporters, and that's exactly what you do by blocking this.  You help support his sorry bellybutton staying in power,  period.  I don't expect that you will even acknowledge that fact but it's true non the less.

 And yeah we're seeing who our friends are and hopefully there will be reprocusions on your end of it.  Why the diddly should we support your worthless nation anymore?

Offline blitz

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« Reply #41 on: February 16, 2003, 12:32:23 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Monk
No, it's the way Adolf Schrder went about it, he could care less about the Iraqi people. he used it as a election issue, instead of the Germany economy.
 
Of course the friends he made in Congress isn't going to help his economy much.

Sorry, he is not much of a Diplomat, witch is why the German coalition is starting to split now.


This thing went crazy when bush administration announced that they will go to war with Iraq with UN or without UN a year ago.

No doubt Gerhard Schroeder used it as election issue, don't liked that either. No idea why he didn't switched back on bush-fire course.
Normally we love to run behind our American friends like a hound.

Regards Blitz


America is threathened by Iraq in no way, it's just plain rediculous.

Offline poopster

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« Reply #42 on: February 16, 2003, 12:39:35 PM »
Quote
I am positive it is sabre rattling to produce change without invasion,destabilisation and massive loss of life....


That may be, but the events of this weekend put him in a very tricky situation.

Like to be a bug on the wall right about now.

Offline blitz

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« Reply #43 on: February 16, 2003, 12:40:10 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Udie
We don't  want you to be mercenaries if that's what you would think you would be.  I can totaly see where German people would not want to go to any war, given your history.  France on the other hand are being total hypocrites.  They are Iraq's biggest business partner and THAT'S why they don't want him gone they stand to lose too much money, that to me is dispicable.  We just want you to get the diddly out of the way so that we can get this over with, with minimal loss of life.  The more you guys block this the more people die under his regiem.

 This whole thing isn't something new.  Part of Bush's campain was that he would deal with Iraq.  That's a need that's been there for 12 long years.  Our last president didn't do toejam but lob some missles over there for 8 years.  This should have been done in 98 when saddam kicked the inspectors out.  If we were doing this for diddlying oil it would have been done already. The irony of the whole stupid oil argument is that by blocking this you guys are making TONS of money for oil companies.  Oil prices will keep getting higher until this thing is over.  Another stupid argument is that this is "Bush's war"  That's utter roadkill.  There is a large chunck of the American people that get off on freeing countries from evil dictators it's kinda what we do.  That right there is the ONLY reason I support this and why I get so pissed at you damn saddam supporters, and that's exactly what you do by blocking this.  You help support his sorry bellybutton staying in power,  period.  I don't expect that you will even acknowledge that fact but it's true non the less.

 And yeah we're seeing who our friends are and hopefully there will be reprocusions on your end of it.  Why the diddly should we support your worthless nation anymore?



This stupid bush thing: "You're with us or against us" just don't work. punt.

Regards Blitz

America is threathened by Iraq in no way, it's just plain rediculous.

Offline Udie

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« Reply #44 on: February 16, 2003, 12:46:10 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by blitz
This stupid bush thing: "You're with us or against us" just don't work. punt.

Regards Blitz

America is threathened by Iraq in no way, it's just plain rediculous.



Fine line up against us, if you're that stupid.