Convince me (part2)

[straffo]

Hangtime can you show French military support to sadam since 1991 (and not before 1991).
In each of your post lately you say that we (the french) provided support to sadam since 1991.
Proove it now (from an accountable ressource ... and I don't trust the NYP  )

If you got the time you can show me those multi-billion trading we are doing with Iraq

Regards

straffo

[Toad]

France - the ambiguous ally

CNN January 17, 2001

Today, France is still not entirely in step with other Western powers in its attitude towards Saddam's regime.

Its companies participate in Franco-Iraqi trade fairs in open defiance of the international embargo against Iraq, while it has shown itself increasingly reluctant to enforce the "no fly" zones in the north and south of the country.

Egypt third largest trade partner with Iraq after France, Russia

Arabic News, Iraq-Egypt, Economics, 4/18/2001

Egypt is the third largest trade partner with Iraq after France and Russia, according to Iraqi Minister of Trade, Mohammed Mahdi Saleh who was speaking on the sidelines of a trade exhibition of Egyptian products recently held in Baghdad.

France accused of aiding Iraq's weapons supply

ARMS TRADE NEWSWIRE

Calgary Herald - April 22, 2001

France accused of aiding Iraq's weapons supply

Britain and America have accused France of mounting a billion-dollar export drive to Iraq that they fear could help Saddam Hussein build weapons of mass destruction.

A confidential list of 6,000 contracts signed by Baghdad, obtained by The Sunday Times, reveals that French companies have agreed to supply Iraq with chemicals, refrigerated trucks and sophisticated pumps that British security sources believe could be used to make chemical weapons.

The planned exports -- which under United Nations sanctions must be approved by the Security Council -- also include fast computers and high-speed communications equipment that could be employed in making missiles.

British and American diplomats are blocking 117 French contracts worth about $450 million Cdn, containing components thought to be of potential use in making missiles or chemical, nuclear or biological weapons. They are among 965 contracts being challenged from the 18-month period to February 2001. All but one challenge has been instigated by officials in London or Washington.

The exports are permitted under the "oil for food" program set up in 1996 to allow Iraq to buy humanitarian aid from the proceeds of oil sales.

British security sources claim to have uncovered evidence that exports described as part of farming or school program were instead destined for the Iraqi military.

In February Britain blocked one such $450,000 Cdn contract claiming it contained high-technology valves that were "an essential component of ballistic missiles." The name and nationality of the exporting company were not clear.

Francis Maude, the shadow foreign secretary, accused Paris last week of ignoring the dangers of Iraqi rearmament. "The French are engaged in a massive export program designed to enhance their economic power," he said. "But this should not be a signal for us to abandon these controls."

Of the $22 billion Cdn of contracts under consideration, the largest shares are accounted for by Egyptian companies (worth $2 billion) and by Russian firms ($2 billion). French exports, worth $2 billion, are viewed of greatest concern, because many involve high technology.

The list shows $26 million of contracts are with British companies as against $17 million for American firms. According to the list, obtained in conjunction with Gulf States Newsletter, the contentious contracts include a $67,000 deal by Rohm & Haas France to supply Iraq with water treatment chemicals. It has been blocked as "dual use" -- with military as well as civilian applications. The company says the chemicals are harmless.

Eurobiz Is Caught Arming Saddam

According to U.N. databases Insight was able to access, since 1998 French companies lead the pack in applying for U.N. licenses to sell potential weapons material to Iraq, with more than 272 different license applications worth billions of dollars. The United States put 93 of those contracts, worth $217 million, on hold. Among them was the sale as "medical equipment" of a series of lithotripsy machines for treating kidney stones without surgery manufactured by the company Karl Storz Endoscopie France SA. Perfectly normal? Think again. The lithotripter employs a high-speed krytron switch similar to those used to trigger nuclear warheads. Along with the six medical machines, Iraq sought 120 spare krytrons, the U.N. Website reveals.

Feel free to dismiss all of this.

But where there is smoke, there is fire, n'est pas?

[Monk]

oops.

[straffo]

1st article :
Is a wonderfull mess of before 2001 and 2001 information credilbilty is at the level of CNN credibilty ... discutable

2nd article : and so ?

3rd :a confidential list of contract (note that we don't know the content of contract ) ... interresting information

more houmorous is this sentence  :

 the contentious contracts include a $67,000 deal by Rohm & Haas France to supply Iraq with water treatment chemicals. It has been blocked as "dual use" -- with military as well as civilian applications.

Dual use ...

and if any butcher owner of a refrigerated truck is to be trialed because of WMD potential it's gonna be fun  


4th: it's like the Onion but without humour ?



I should have precised 1st that potential use is not to be confused with primary use ...

Did the french sell weapons to Sadam :
answer : yes before 1991

Did the french sell weapons to Sadam after 1991:
answer : proove it ,potential is not  enought.

[Toad]

Figured you'd just discard it Straffo.

However, let's look at the trail here.

France, indeed, has been in open defiance of the UN embargo. You guys were flying planes in with the Russians early on. Undeniable fact, n'est pas?

Two, France is the largest trade partner with Iraq. Undeniable fact, n'est pas?

Three, 117 French contracts with Iraq are being held up by the UN Security Council as potential "dual use" violations of the trade. Simple fact again, n'est pas?

Four, it's alleged that since 1998 French companies lead the pack in applying for U.N. licenses to sell potential weapons material to Iraq. Given the previous three points, this is extremely likely.

As I said, where there is smoke, there is fire.

Allow me to ask you this, mon frere:

If the US does go into Iraq and IF there are significant US casualties and IF those casualties can be traced to Iraqi weapons/equipment stamped "Fabriqué en France".....

what do you think will be the relationship between France and the United States after that?

Perhaps this is what Monsieur Chirac is really worried about?

The proof will be before you then but it will be too late for you to avoid the unpleasant results of such proof.

Should France eventually join the coaltion and French boys die to French weapons, I would think that would be quite unpleasant in France as well.

[Rude]

Well?

[straffo]

Originally posted by Toad
Figured you'd just discard it Straffo.

Unlikely to happen ...it's no in my nature and cost me a lot of death in the MA

However, let's look at the trail here.

France, indeed, has been in open defiance of the UN embargo. You guys were flying planes in with the Russians early on. Undeniable fact, n'est pas?

yep

Two, France is the largest trade partner with Iraq. Undeniable fact, n'est pas?

sure ...

Three, 117 French contracts with Iraq are being held up by the UN Security Council as potential "dual use" violations of the trade. Simple fact again, n'est pas?

yes (btw it's "n'est-ce pas" the proper gallicism )

Four, it's alleged that since 1998 French companies lead the pack in applying for U.N. licenses to sell potential weapons material to Iraq. Given the previous three points, this is extremely likely.

I'm trying to figure were the US sells their weapon ...
you have your beloved customer in the Gulf ... we only have sadam ... give us a share of  the Koweitian or Saoudian market and we will stop selling items to Sadam  quite fast

As I said, where there is smoke, there is fire.

sure "il n'y a pas de fumée sans feu ..."

Allow me to ask you this, mon frere:

If the US does go into Iraq and IF there are significant US casualties and IF those casualties can be traced to Iraqi weapons/equipment stamped "Fabriqué en France".....

I keep saying that we didn't sell weapon to Iraq since 1991.
In this case you'll have to lookup the fabrication date

what do you think will be the relationship between France and the United States after that?

They can be worst than actually ?
When an allied is menacing another allied how is it called ?
A dis-agreement ? a dissension ?

When I read all that insulting posts ,all those newspaper headline all those fox headline ...
I've trouble indentifying the actual american and those who made the ultimate sacrifice for my freedom.

Perhaps this is what Monsieur Chirac is really worried about?

I don't think he got the minimal tool to be worried .
read : I don't think he got a brain it would have been clever to act like the UK and we will have our share of oil after the inevitable war.
Now our chances to have low cost oil are gone.

The proof will be before you then but it will be too late for you to avoid the unpleasant results of such proof.

When you use menace don't expect me to act your way.
Except pissing me it has no result.

Should France eventually join the coaltion and French boys die to French weapons, I would think that would be quite unpleasant in France as well.

Did happen in the past.
There was even some insignifiant frogs killed by a 'clever' foreign policy of the USA (we've already discussed that in the past).

[GRUNHERZ]

So you are blaming the superiority of US arms and their succes in the global marketplace for France's need to violate UN sanctions and, uhhh lets say,  "drop" their substandard weapons on Iraq?  

[Toad]

Originally posted by straffo
I'm trying to figure were the US sells their weapon ...
you have your beloved customer in the Gulf ... we only have sadam ... give us a share of  the Koweitian or Saoudian market and we will stop selling items to Sadam  quite fast

Surely you aren't using France's failure to acquire other customers as a justification for selling to Saddam?

 

They can be worst than actually ?

[/b]

Yes, I think it can be much worse.
 

When you use menace don't expect me to act your way.
Except pissing me it has no result.

[/b]

No one is "menacing" you or threatening you. But you undoubtedly understand that relations between France and the US can get much worse. I'm not talking about militarily, I'm talking about diplomatically and economically.

 
I think you know in your heart that your country has been supplying weapons or at the very least "dual use" items to Saddam.

I think you also know in your heart that Saddam is a dictator of the same type as Hitler.

I think, however, that you prefer not to think about that too much.

[Swoop]

Originally posted by straffo
give us a share of the Koweitian or Saoudian market and we will stop selling items to Sadam quite fast  

So you admit it then.

[Hangtime]

Originally posted by straffo
Hangtime can you show French military support to sadam since 1991 (and not before 1991).
In each of your post lately you say that we (the french) provided support to sadam since 1991.
Proove it now (from an accountable ressource ... and I don't trust the NYP  )

If you got the time you can show me those multi-billion trading we are doing with Iraq

Regards

straffo

Straffo.. Sorry; Toad beat me to it... and did a better job of it than I could.

I did get a kick outta your correcting Toads French. That was so... how do we say... French.

I do have another quick question for you personally though..

What do you think France will do when we attack Iraq?

[Vulcan]

Originally posted by straffo
There was even some insignifiant frogs killed by a 'clever' foreign policy of the USA (we've already discussed that in the past).

Lets talk 'clever' foreign policy...

[straffo]

Sorry to say but I don't compare one Greenpeace member to several french soldier uncliding member of my familly because the OSS was supporting uncle Ho.


And in fact there is always a tragedie in the New-Zealand seas as seen the ridiculous prestation of the kiwi team for the america's cup

[straffo]

Originally posted by Swoop
So you admit it then.

1st I admit nothing.

2nd since how long I'm a representative for the whole French population  ?

It's like saying that Hangtime represent the whole American citizen mind it's a very dangerous shortcut.

I only represent myself (and sometime  I don't represent anything at all )

[Hangtime]

Originally posted by straffo
Sorry to say but I don't compare one Greenpeace member to several french soldier uncliding member of my familly because the OSS was supporting uncle Ho.
 

Yah know straffo, the more we learn about the French, the more we begin to really despise you.

"THE TRAGEDY OF MISSION 19 TO HAIPHONG"

An excerpt from Martin L. Mickelsen's forthcoming book of the History of French Indochina:


      Long before America's war in Vietnam, General Claire Chennault's 14th Air Force conducted a savage war in the skies over French Indochina, as Vietnam was called during World War II.   It was a battle fought largely without publicity, hidden in the shadows of more titanic struggles that captured the headlines of the war: Guadalcanal, Midway, El Alamein, Stalingrad, Normandy, or the Battle of the Bulge.   By January 1945, as far as the American public was concerned, the life-and-death struggle in Indochina was literally reduced to funny pages in the strip, "Terry and the Pirates," which ironically credited the Navy for the fighting in the French colony.

      The war in Indochina was made more dangerous and tragic by the actions of the Vichy French Indochinese colonial authorities who willingly aided the Japanese war effort militarily as well as economically.   As part of a deliberate policy of collaboration with the Axis, the Vichy French government of Marshal Philippe Petain had allowed the Japanese to establish military bases in northern Indochina, or Tonkin, in September 1939, in order to attack the Nationalists in China.   Vichy stood aside a year later, in July 1941, when the Japanese moved into southern Indochina.

      Indochina's collaboration went even further.   In March 1942, four airmen and an army engineer reached Tourane (item 1 on small insert map), now Do Nang, by launch from the Philippines.   The four were turned over to the Japanese on the orders of Indochina's governor general, Vice Admiral Jean Decoux. Four of these men toiled for the rest of the war on the "Railroad of Death" in Thailand, made famous by Pierre Boulle's novel, Bridge Over the River Kwai. (Free French Lieutenant Boulle was himself one of Decoux's prisoners after he was captured trying to establish a resistance organization in the colony.)   The fifth, a fighter pilot from the l6th Pursuit Squadron, eventually escaped and reached China safely the day the war ended.   On May 20, 1942, a Flying Tiger was downed over Lao Kay, French Indochina (item 2 on small insert map).   The pilot, Louis Bishop, too was surrendered on the admiral's orders to the Japanese for interrogation.   Rumored to have been beheaded, Bishop instead was sent to POW camp in occupied China; he too managed to escape two years later.   In June, two British soldiers escaped from a Japanese POW camp on the banks of the Saigon River and reached a French army camp.   On Decoux's command, they were returned to the Japanese and beheaded.   A year later, in April, 1943, a Dutch POW escaped from a Japanese ship anchored off Cape Saint Jacques and turned himself over to Vichy authorities, seeking their protection.   He too was returned on Decoux's orders and executed.

      Thereafter the Japanese demanded that all allied prisoners captured by Decoux's forces be surrendered on the spot without the formality of obtaining the admiral's agreement first.   At the end of August 1943, enraged at the beginning of a bombing campaign in Tonkin by the 308th Bombardment Group based in China, Decoux accepted the Japanese demands and issued orders to his administrators and military commanders to surrender all captured non-Asiatics to the Japanese on the spot.

      Fifteen days later, on September 15, 1943, the 308th conducted its 19th mission after joining the 14th Air Force in China.   Its target was a French cement plant in Haiphong, a major port on the Gulf of Tonkin, that had just been turned over to the Japanese- though not without resistance from Decoux.   The governor general wanted the French proprietors to maintain majority ownership of all plants in partnership with the Japanese, instead of sole Japanese control.   Decoux's squabble with the Japanese was intercepted by American intelligence, which was reading all Vichy French messages as well as those of the Japanese.   The 308th was assigned the task of ending the dispute between Decoux and the Japanese once and for all.   The following account of Mission 19 (as well as the description above of Vichy's and Decoux's policies) is based primarily on previously unpublished documents found in the French archives, supplemented by interviews with survivors of the admiral's policy, and on reports from the National Archives in Washington, D.C. and at Maxwell Air Force Base

I hope like hell yer proud of yer 'family'. The OSS correctly identifed Uncle Ho as a TRUE member of the Vietnamese resistance, and as such gave him aid. If your 'family' got burned, it's because officals of your nation betrayed us by backing the japanese.

I cannot fathom WHY we ever backed the French there later on.. stuns the hell outta me. But then again, most of the things america has done for france in the last 60 years makes no sense at all either.

On 3 August 1950, the U.S. Military Assistance Advisory Group(MAAG), Indochina, arrived in Saigon to administer the material assistance program. The MAAG's Navy Section, comprised of Commander John B. Howland and seven other officers and men, was on hand at the end of October to process the first shipment of naval material, which consisted of Grumman F6F Hellcat fighters, to French forces. During the next four years, as part of the Mutual Defense Assistance Program, the United States delivered military aid totaling $2.6 billion, including two light aircraft carriers, renamed by the French Bois Belleau and La Fayette, 438 amphibious landing ships and craft, armored river patrol boats and other vessels, and 500 aircraft. In addition, the Navy Section of MAAG oversaw the provision of spare parts and the development of base facilities such as the Naval Shipyard in Saigon and the Naval Amphibious Base in Haiphong.
Dept of The Navy