Tour 20 Fighter Vs stats

[Seeker]

Great presentation! How's it done? (is that Excell-XP or something?)

Will you be updating the "Top killers" page?, that seems to have died after tour 18.

[lazs1]

It's simple enough deja.  I would like a little more parity without perking everything on down to the spit one or buffallo when they come out.   Either way.. the perk system itself is neither cause nor cure for the problem.

The problem is mixing late or uber planes in with lesser planes.   The problem is also... How do we introduce early war planes?   It seems the set is stuck... painted itself into a corner.  

Now... If never having early war planes in the arena is ok with you then I guess you have a point.   If two planes being used allmost thirty percent of the time is fine with you then I guess it is working.  If most planes being used 2% of the time is a good thing to you...  If some planes that are used very rarely have the highest K/D ratio and that seems ok to you...

If all that is considerd "working" to you then we will never understand each other.   Still...

I'm curious... how would you introduce planes like the P40 and the Spit one in the current arena and perk system?   A person could choose a P51, hellcat, corsair, nik, spit9 or a P40 for the same cost...  He would certainly see all those other planes in the arena if he chose the P40.   some may choose the P40 out of perversity but it would be a rare person who did well and that same person would do better in something else.

Allso... I have no idea how you think...  it is obvious that you have none about how I think.   As for me being a "general" and telling people what to fly..... LOL, well.... yes.. I would tell people that they couldn't fly jets against prop planes and that they couldn't fly P51's against P40's or hurri ones.  Sorry... I want a level (or as level as possible) a playing field.   making unfair fights rare does not make them any more fair.... just more rare.  

I want the most parity and variety I can get..  Is that too difficult for you to understand?
lazs

[Am0n]

The f6f stats are totaly off due to me flying it prodomitly, if i would choose another plane it would more than likely sore to the top of the K:d ratio list..  

but im going to continue to fly it, so better luck next tour f6f pilots  lol


*Edit stupid smileys!*

[ 10-08-2001: Message edited by: Am0n ]

[lazs1]

"And this is the fault of the perk system how lazs? Jeez bud... quit your fricking squeaking. The only real way to lessen the % of the top aircraft is to introduce more aircraft period. Wether perked or unperked, it promotes variety. Unfortunately, it also means that some aircraft will be used even less."

That has got to be the stupidest thing I have ever heard you say.   How would that work?   You mean every plane that is used one half of one percent takes that much away from the two or 3 planes that are used more than i/3 of the time?   Well.... I don't consider killing some lameo who happens to choose the wrong plane for one reason or another, to be "variety" but..... even if it is considered "variety" in your opinion.... What would you do about parity?   That certainly isn't parity.   Being able to choose a plane that is severly outmatched by the average arena plane is no choice at all.
lazs

[AKDejaVu]

btw, you still doing the top 10 killers and K/D ratio stats? always looked forward to seeing who made the top 10. Thanks again man <S>

The Top 10 stats will return.. they are just on hold until some things can be worked out with HTC.  It seems my querries were causing a bit of a hit on their server and I don't want that to happen.  Unfortunately, they've been a tad bit busy with 1.08 and the upcoming con.  I think things may start rolling after that... or at least I'm going to wait till then to chat with HiTech again.

As for you Laz...

What you want is for everyone in the arena to be replaced with you.  That way everyone will fly what you want them to fly and the way you want them to fly.  This will make life for you that much more enjoyable.

That is the only way you are going to get any kind of parity AND selection.  The perk system was introduced as a means to allow high-end aircraft without them dominating the arena.  Would you say that has worked so far Lazs?  I believe it has.

The rest is simply human nature.  Take it or leave it... just don't come here and squeak about it every day with the same old VERY tired argument.

AKDejaVu

[Sky Viper]

Originally posted by hazed-:
Can we have an admission by those that told us that the perk system would not encourage a more varied arena,or that it wouldnt encourage the use of older models, that they were WRONG?

hmmm i very much doubt it.

Remember the 'Why perk my f4uc!' and the 'I love the f4uc and now i cant fly it' crap?
while we said you can still fly it and that it needed to be controlled so that its use falls more in line with other models.
Well check the stats out.
It sure looks to me as if its worked.8 perks seems to have been a good estimate doesnt it.


<S> AKDV for another good stat page.

[ 10-06-2001: Message edited by: hazed- ]

hazed,
Do you think they don't fly it because they are afraid to lose the points, or because it makes everyone else magneticly drawn to kill the Perk birds, or perhaps because they don't have enough time to develop the skill required to pad their perk account.

Personally, my best K/D ratio has always been in the C Hog and tour 20 is a great example of that.
4/1 in that beautiful bird, and I don't fly very cautiously!

It's just a shame that a Tempest driver (which I wish I could be) falls victim to that big bellybutton TEMP (IM A PERK, COME GET ME) banner that it tows around the arena. Same holds true for the Ta152, Ar234, etc.

I am 110% against the perk system.
I see it like this:  You have the money to support your favorite car (Lets say a Ferrari). So you buy it, insure it, liscense it, and put it in the garage because you are only alowed to drive it if you earn enough positive driving points.
You MUST earn these points because the last 1,000 Ferrari owners have been caught exceding the posted speed limits more often than any other car on the road.

The perk system just doesn't do a fair job of simulating realism.

Viper

BTW, Great Job Deja!

[ 10-08-2001: Message edited by: Sky Viper ]

[Sky Viper]

LOL Perks help.
NOT!!!
Check this out:  LINK

I did a quick sort on the fighter data for Tour 20.  Descending order by K/D+1 ratio.

The perk fighters occupy the top 3 slots for all the fighters!!!

LOL

Viper

[ 10-08-2001: Message edited by: Sky Viper ]

[Am0n]

Shouldnt they have the best K:d though Viper?

they are perked just for that reason, and for historical value. I think the over all ratios only show more that they need perked, what if there were only 40 kills 10 deaths in a 152? thats 4:1 sounds good but you got the SpitIX with 1400 kills 600 deaths(example).. Much larger area for error.

 Of course the superior air craft should have a better K:d ratio, better air craft for one and they got better pilots at the stick normaly, until i hop in a F4C and ruin the numbers.  

[jpeg]

good work AKDejaVu
I love these stats

[Dinger]

Uh, Viper, that's to be expected.  Most people won't fly perk planes in a stupid fashion (but I will).  And they're such inherently macho planes they wwill get a lot of kills.  So what? Did anybody expect to see a perk fighter with a K/D of under 1?

[Sky Viper]

Originally posted by Am0n:
Shouldnt they have the best K:d though Viper?

they are perked just for that reason, and for historical value. I think the over all ratios only show more that they need perked, what if there were only 40 kills 10 deaths in a 152? thats 4:1 sounds good but you got the SpitIX with 1400 kills 600 deaths(example).. Much larger area for error.

 Of course the superior air craft should have a better K:d ratio, better air craft for one and they got better pilots at the stick normaly, until i hop in a F4C and ruin the numbers.  

Yes, they should have the best K/D, because they are the "Best" planes.

You have a twisted sense of logic in my POV...You say that the overal K/D ratio shows a need for perk, but then you say that a superior fighter should be superior.  Make up your mind!
Should it be a superior fighter, or should it be a piece to set on the mantel and coo over?

And Dinger,
I will fly them stupid too!  
That doesn't change the fact that my best K/D is in the -C  

I say that if it's macho, then let it be macho!
Don't force the whines to go from "That C Hog" to "That Ubber Nik" to "That Master Mossy" to whatever is next.

No matter how you try to control it, the whines will come. And since the majority of whiners (like myself) are not the best pilots, you are only punishing the weak by taking the best weapons out of our hands.

I think it's up to the pilot to know his plane and his opponent's plane, and fly accordingly! (and whine a little if the server lags either to death)  
I don't have a problem taking a Typh into a fight and losing, but a Tempest, I can't go near a fight unless I want to be gang banged.
THAT is not right!

Viper

[Am0n]

Originally posted by Sky Viper:
You have a twisted sense of logic in my POV...You say that the overal K/D ratio shows a need for perk, but then you say that a superior fighter should be superior.

HUH!? Come again??


What dosent make sense about :
 

Originally posted by Am0n:
Of course the superior air craft should have a better K:d ratio, better air craft for one and they got better pilots at the stick normaly, until i hop in a F4C and ruin the numbers.  

Go back to your post about the "top 3 K:d ratios" being the perked planes.

Lets just replace the word "superior" with "perked" and put more laman terms and see if it makes sense..

Of course the perked air craft should have a better K:d ratio, it is a better air craft for one, and they normaly have better pilots at the stick.  

What doesnt make sense about that?

What ever that toejam is your smoking, the rule is "puff puff give", your messing up the rotation.  

[lazs1]

"As for you Laz...

What you want is for everyone in the arena to be replaced with you. That way everyone will fly what you want them to fly and the way you want them to fly. This will make life for you that much more enjoyable.

That is the only way you are going to get any kind of parity AND selection. The perk system was introduced as a means to allow high-end aircraft without them dominating the arena. Would you say that has worked so far Lazs? I believe it has.

The rest is simply human nature. Take it or leave it... just don't come here and squeak about it every day with the same old VERY tired argument.

AKDejaVu "

Geeze... I never thought much of u deja but I never thought you were both pompus AND untruthful..

Show me where I ever said that I wanted everyone to fly any certain plane.   You have no Idea of what I want and I honestly resent the fact that a pompus blowhard like you would pretend to know of some secret agenda i may have... Don't I say enough (and quite clearly I think) for you to not have to read between the lines?   Even a cursory look at my posts would show that you have no clue as to what I want so keep that bull to yourself.

You claim that the idea behind the idiotic perk system was to keep a few planes from dominating the arena... I'm gonna go out on a limb here and assume that you mean that they will be used less and/or account for a lower percent of the kills in the arena.  If this is what you are talking about....  you are correct...  That is the case.   If yu mean that they are less effective when someone uses one then no...  They are still top killers.   Wolves among the sheep.   the perk system has done nothing to make them fair in the arena.    A person who takes up a perk ride has a 2-4 times as good a chance of killing as a person who takes up say a -1d Hog or Hellcat.... Rare is not fair.   they ryme but they have different meanings.  How can you claim that the perk system has added parity?   It is laughable that you would even suggest it.  

So... if you can make the high end planes expensive enough and stigmitize em enough and make em the object of scorn and the target of everyone that sees em then the perk system will work?   Yet... they still account for the highest K/D ratios in the game?   How ya gonna "perk" that out of em?

Plus.... I have still not seen how you would introduce early war planes into the current arena by using perks.   And, I don't know about anyone else but i would be interested in just what you consider to be my "same old tired arguement".
lazs

[AKDejaVu]

speaking of pompus.. here comes lazs

I didn't quote you saying that you wanted people to fly specific aircraft for a reason lazs... you never typed it.

here's what you do say:

We need parity in the MA
I don't like when people ruin my fun
I think this is fun

I put this to you lazs.. you need everyone to do exactly what you want them to do in order for you to have your definition of fun.  You are unwilling to change the way you do things because in that would mean comprimising your absolute definition of fun.

By doing this, you insult virtually everyone that isn't doing what you deem to be supporting of your ultra fun utopia.  You insult perk points <though perked planes play a miniscule role in the ma> and bombers and frequently used aircraft.  Did you ever stop to think that behind every one of your idiotic labels there is a pilot flying the plane?

Aircraft don't make the MA what it is today.  Perk points don't make the MA what it is today.  Bombers don't make the MA what it is today.  The pilots do.  When you go on your incessant tears in regards to the current status of the MA... think about who you are tearing apart.

Most others grasp this very simple concept lazs.  Until figure it out, I guess I'll always be pompus in your eyes.

AKDejaVu

[Sky Viper]

Originally posted by Am0n:


Go back to your post about the "top 3 K:d ratios" being the perked planes.

Lets just replace the word "superior" with "perked" and put more laman terms and see if it makes sense..

Of course the perked air craft should have a better K:d ratio, it is a better air craft for one, and they normaly have better pilots at the stick.  

What doesnt make sense about that?

What ever that toejam is your smoking, the rule is "puff puff give", your messing up the rotation.    

Perhaps the "Shit someone is smoking" is the problem.
Personally, I have never smoked toejam; or anything illegal for that matter. <Scouts Honor>

What doesn't make sense is your saying that a Superior(ok perked) Aircraft should be perked.
Try to think outside the "make it fair" box.

If a Zeke (hypothetical) is the most superior plane, then let it be!  Don't try to dwindle it's success because it kills better and more often than any other plane!
That's like saying you can't use the "Free Parking" spot on that popular Board Game because it produces to much cash flow.
Hey, it's there, it's correctly modeled, Leave it alone and let it fly!

The perk system is the result of two things: whining losers that got beat up by lesser pilots like myself, and the lesser notion that we need some historical representation of production numbers.

Well, I agree 100% with part 2 of that, but our current perk system makes a mockery of history by placing superior aircraft under arrest (metaphorically speaking).

The biggest problem is that this system keeps playing to the whine.  First it was the C Hog, then the N1K2, now what, the Mosiquito?
Systems always grow and they always get out of control. The whine NEVER goes away.

Hell, I may not be so opposed to the current system if perk planes didn't have to tow around those banners (Icons) that identify them as point pin'atas. I wouldn't like it, but I wouldn't take every chance I can to complain about it either.
I would rather see no perks at all.

I'm all for, FLY WHAT YOU LIKE, WHEN YOU LIKE.

Viper

<shakes head disgustedly>  Smoking toejam...hmmph!