Author Topic: Rights, liberty and the Rule of Law.  (Read 727 times)

Offline miko2d

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Rights, liberty and the Rule of Law.
« on: February 21, 2003, 09:27:19 AM »
Despite widespread use of those terms, most people do not have a clear understanding what they mean. Here I intend to explain in my own words the philosophical view that I share to and their application to libertarian ideology.

Rights
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What are “rights”? Can a single person have rights absent of other people? Not in any conceivable way – rights clearly involve others, thus they are a social category. Where they come from is a question much related to what they are. Can there be “God given rights”, “natural rights”? Surely not – any more than “God-given” or “natural” money. Which is just worthless colorful paper, not currency unless other people honor it as such. It’s no good having a tablet of “rights” from God Himself if no one pays much attention.
Imagine that your neighbor has some right. What kind of a relationship it means for you? Obligation, of course – to honor whatever he has right to. Rights of one person are really obligations of other people – no more, no less. Like cold is absence of heat. You can say that you add cold to something but really you mean transferring heat to something else.

Whenever we talk about recognized/granted rights we talk about assumed/imposed obligations. Let’s remember that, please. We will talk here of a “free” (term to be defined later) minimum-coercion society, since the matter is simple in despotic one – obligations are whatever the government says they are. :)

“Rights derive from systems of relations of which claimant has become a part through helping to maintain them. If he ceases to do so or has never done so (or nobody has done so for him) there exist no ground on which such claims can be founded.
 Relationships between individuals exist only as products of their wills but the mere wish of the claimant can hardly create a duty for others. Only expectations created by long practice can create duties for members of the community.” – F. Hayek.

So when someone gets more rights it really means some other people get saddled with obligations. The more rights are “given”, the more - rather than less - restrictive a society becomes! That is very important to remember when you hear a politician granting or calling fore more rights for some – it really means more obligations/restrictions for others, hence oppression.

Freedom/Liberty
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All kinds of definitions are proposed. One of them is “absence of restraint” on someone’s actions, which must be infinitely qualified “as long as it does not harm someone” which opens a whole can of worms – I know I should not hit your face with my fist (some claim I can if you are in my house doing something illicit) but do I harm you if I buy the last doughnut from a stand? It would appear so…
How about freedom as an “ability to express oneself”? Do I infringe on you freedom if I do not listen/watch? What if I do not allow you to hang it on my wall? Refuse to pay for your paint or elephant dung or whatever you use? Can it even be called your freedom if it depends on my arbitrary cooperation?

What does one need to act free? To act – to be, even? You need energy just to exist - some kind of sustenance – like food. So you need control of that food. Otherwise someone else may eat it. If you need someone’s permission to consume that food, then you are not free in the least – since you can die by his arbitrary wish. You need some space to exist. You cannot exist in the same space someone else occupies. Do you rely on someone’s arbitrary decision to have that space? Then you are certainly not free, whatever “free” means.
Energy and space solved, you can think, maybe hum quietly but not much else. Acting means making changes in a material world. So you need control of some material objects. Do you need someone’s permission to modify/expend things? If someone can *arbitrarily* approve or deny your request, you are not free, that’s clear. Can you do something with things if someone else is trying to do something else with them? That would arbitrarily restrict/interfere with your actions.

So you need some predetermined domain – not depending on someone’s arbitrary decision – involving at least space and material objects over which you exercise arbitrary control. Guess what? That is called property - several or private property, private domain. That’s what freedom is.

“Freedom is individual's ability to pursue his own ends: one who is free in peacetime no longer bound by common concrete ends of the community. Such freedom of individual decision is made possible by delimiting distinct individual rights (the right of property for example) and designating domains within which one can dispose of the means known to him for his own end. That is, recognizable free sphere is determined for each person.” – Hayek.

Clearly, people possessing different amounts of property have different amounts of freedom – to do things in pursuit of their ends.
One of the essential components of private property is ability to voluntarily give it away or exchange it – without coercion or restriction. Obviously one must not violate other people’s property. There are plenty of tricky issues involved in deciding what constitutes reasonable degree of interference – after all we often share the same air, water, risks, etc. Those issues are resolved - usually based on accepted customs and arguments.
Also, property can be commonly owned – by a group, town, state, and the whole country – with use determined by whatever method the group comes up with.

By the way, property ownership is a right. It involves an obligation on other members of society to respect your objects/space and not interfere with your disposal of it. That right originated relatively recently in human history and quite gradually at that. In pre-historical society people lived in groups. They were not at liberty to pursue their goals or dispose of material objects. The first property was personal – tools/adornments manufactured by the user and owned exclusively, ownership protected by taboo customs. Such property was considered part of an owner’s body and often buried with him/her rather than used by others. Later, true private property appeared – a piece of food, an object that an owner could dispose of at his whim – like trade to someone else, even outside the tribe. As soon as that happened, people could spread outside narrow areas where they could find everything they needed to exist to others, which lacked some – or even most essential materials - which could now be obtained by trade. That is how division of labor/commerce originated to mutual benefit of all parties and enormous increase in numbers of our species, whatever Marx says.

Let me quickly cover rule of law before I jump to the libertarian interpretation and application of the above concepts.

Rule of Law
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That means a social arrangement where people’s rights are fixed rather than arbitrarily defined. Not to confuse it with a society that claims to have “Laws”. Rule of Law is a nice thing to have by definition – if only because it allows one to plan his life without those plans being scrambled unpredictably by government or, worse, suddenly finding one’s activity criminal. Absence of the Rule of Law is called Despotism.

 One can have Rule of Law in a (constitutional) monarchy – where rights and obligations are not equal but strictly defined and where the sovereign, the lesser lords and the subjects are bound to operate within those restrictions in a predictable way. Superiors have executive powers bound by those limits. Judiciary has power to interpret the compliance of actions to those limits and legislature (also called laws) is enacted to regulate behavior also within the same limits.
 Alternatively, one can have a democracy with “laws” but not a Rule of Law. After all, democracy is rule of majority and two people have no more justification to tell one what to do than one has to tell two – except force. If the government acts within defined limits and acts regardless of benefits to particular persons without modifying people’s rights, it’s a Rule of Law. When the government *arbitrarily* restricts the rights or can do so, it’s not a Rule of Law. For example if you could buy steel from Brazil yesterday and today you are not allowed to while others are still allowed to buy wheat there – it’s restriction of rights. Unless a trade with Brazil is restricted because of military considerations – it’s OK then right-wise.
 Sometimes it’s hard to differentiate at a first glance whether the rights or just the actions are being restricted but the difference is huge. Usually the mere fact that someone can abridge the rights constitutes absence of the Rule of Law. Many people confuse the state where they are not intolerably oppressed at the moment with the state where they cannot be oppressed. It like a temporary safety of an animal that is not being shot at right now versus the safety of an animal that nobody is allowed to hunt at all.

Offline miko2d

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« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2003, 09:28:13 AM »
Application
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Now to some applications as some libertarians see it. Society with the least amount of coercion is preferable. More freedom is preferable and maximum individual freedom is achieved at a certain level of rights – property being essential one. State is needed to enforce those rights – protect persons and property from violence – including foreign invasion, and fraud – enforcement of contracts, explicit and implicit.

The members of the society have obligation to respect other people’s domain – body/property, to honor contracts and implicit agreements, to help enforce the rules – financially and personally, including military service if necessary. That’s it – the necessary minimum corresponding to the maximum freedom.

State revenue is somehow collected (taxes, fees) for primary goals (army, police, courts) and to create the public goods – those where everyone benefits but nobody has an incentive to create them single-handedly – like lighthouses, possibly roads that could be commonly owned.

All the transactions between adults are accomplished without coercion and to mutual benefit. When exchanging services/property in an honest transaction, each side made the best choice available to him/her. Reasonable honest disclosure of goods/services rendered is assumed and protected by state against fraud or contract violation.
Restricting such transaction would mean forcing both sides into worse alternative choices available to them.

To foresee some questions:
Yes, shared property can exist – streets, air, and sea, objects - whatever people decide.
No, you cannot pollute, unless you somehow figure out a way to only pollute your property and not affect the other’s property. The acceptable limits of non-pollution – air, water, noise, light must be worked out by the state in light of the traditions and reviewed based on newly available knowledge. Shared resources, like animals, river, and sunlight have to be regulated.

Yes, the robber barons of late did violate other people’s property and even rights, but that was exactly because the government did not perform its function of protecting people’s rights.

Anything that originates in one’s domain is part of it and that person’s property – unless explicitly/implicitly agreed with other people.
One can do anything in one’s domain that does not violate other people’s domains unless agreed. Nobody can enter the domain without owner’s permission.
That means an intruder is completely within the owner’s power – which simplifies sentencing and the whole punishment debate. Nobody has to decide on the proper punishment and proper response but the owner – whatever cause of intrusion. That would simplify legal system enormously.
That does not mean you can invite and murder a person – by extending an invitation you enter into an implicit contract to respect his domain/body within yours, or, if he has a heart attack to allow ambulance to get to him.

Not only the actual violations of a private domain but risks must be considered. So a person can be restricted from building a private nuclear reactor unless his property is appropriate (size, wind, groundwater) and construction approved.

No, an ambulance is not a right guaranteed by state, neither is sewer. Use the services of a private one. Or have a communal arrangement – municipal, town, whatever.
Neither is a disaster relief. If you decide to grow “cheap” wheat in a tornado-prone area, add the cost of reinforced house or replacement or insurance premiums to the price of your product. Oh, yes – charity will be there, we are all nice people and do not need state coercion to help others in need, even if their actions are the results of bad decisions and taking unreasonable risks.
School system – private too. Or communal. Surely, we are all supposed to benefit from some guy going through school/college with program created according to some latest educational whim – but if some people decide not to take advantage of such “benefit”, who is to say otherwise in a free society?

Any person coming into society that supports the operation of the society has a claim for rights – through others incurring corresponding obligations in return for his/her cooperation. The difference between citizen and foreigner does not disappear but becomes rather moot. A neighbor can sell his lot to whomever he wants and the new owner is bound to behave. And few would care much about his political views since the only thing the government does is run police and military. Of course it would suck to find oneself in the middle of a Chinese area with all stores switching to an unknown language, but then a use of some common language can somehow be mandated as necessary to maintain a society. That’s a tricky question best left for lawyers.

Discrimination could not be an issue in such a society. Obviously, what we understand as discrimination now – preferential treatment based on other things than qualifications – may exist. Any person is not restricted in whom he hires or sells his property to since both are voluntary interaction. There is a cost to discrimination and the one discriminating bears it – by getting a less qualified worker or inferior product and driving more qualified one to his competitors.

Now the controversial stuff.
A child originates within a person’s body, so a child belongs to that person – part of his/her domain. A child does not have claim to any rights other than those voluntarily claimed on its behalf by its parents (see Rights above) – since nobody has incurred any obligation to such child/fetus. Parent has rights in a society by supporting its operation and can claim such rights for a child.
Nobody is allowed to offer anything – candy, ride, pornography, a book, let alone drugs or alcohol to an underage child because it would violate the parent’s domain - unless the parents agree, of course. Nobody can claim rights for someone else’s child because enforcing them would mean violating the parents’ domain.
When a child grows old enough to support the operation of the society, he claims the same rights as others. The exact moment when that occurs is a tricky question. Probably when a child steps outside and says “I am my own responsibility” and the parent says “OK, I am not responsible for him/her anymore and whatever is done to him/her is not a violation of my domain“. Probably the prevailing tradition will have a say on the age.

If a parent loses a fetus/child due to someone’s action, he/she can claim manslaughter/murder since he can claim full rights for that fetus/child. Alternatively, if a parent does not claim such rights – including ownership of a domain, the abortion is not considered a violation and not a murder. That makes it easy for me to define my stand on abortion – I do not have to decide anything and leave that decision to the parents in question, however abortion is abhorrent to me – or alternatively, however I’d have preferred some people aborted :)
Oh, yea – I cannot do anything about that since getting to the fetus/child would violate the parent’s domain.

By the way, those are extreme cases, never fear – the free society can certainly have additional restrictions/obligations in affect based on prevailing customs/traditions, including definitions of murder and child and what right one has.

I am often asked about libertarian stand drugs, prostitution, and alcohol. We – majority, anyway - dislike those things and most would not condone engaging in them. But we cannot claim any right to regulate voluntary and honest transaction between consenting adults (children excluded as explained earlier). Me having such right to regulate what does not affect my body/property would mean obligation of those people to let me interfere with what they would like to do – and why would anyone incur such an obligation without coercion?

This is a very rough outline, there are many complicated issues, some of them unresolved or maybe even unsolvable – where traditions and customs would have to take place of reason.
I guess it is not a surprise that libertarians do not consider US to be a completely free state or operating under the Rule of Law – even though it is arguably the most free state in the world.

Fire up the questions and opposing points. I recommend that you post ask for more detailed explanations if some item seems wrong.
You can always claim that the author is an idiot and/or comes from the wrong background to have a reasonable opinion and is greedy to boot, but I know for sure many very smart people, including Americans of impeccable credentials and good morals share those views. :)

 miko

Offline Naso

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« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2003, 09:44:52 AM »
Interesting.

The concept of domain and how it is formed, how a new individual leaving his parents domain can build a new one, i failed to grasp, can you explain better?

Offline miko2d

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« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2003, 10:14:42 AM »
The concept of domain and how it is formed

 Your domain is generally your body, your abilities, your physical property, your share in communal property and whatever contractual obligations others have towards you (like loans or supply agreements or fishing rights in their waters).

 By saying "generally" I mean there can be exeptions. You may have an ability/skill to do something but not own it completely. It is common for programmers to sign a "non-competition" agreement preventing them from using skill/knowlege aquired in a company - usually for a period of a few years.

 How the original people acquired theirs - various ways.
 By claiming property without owners, by manufactuting things from scratch, by conquest, by extortion, by fraud, etc. - that's history, usually many generations ago. Property tends to wear off and change hands, get split through inheritance, get obsolete and worthless and be replaced by property created through labor.

 So after many generations the fraction of the original property - however unlawfully aquired - in modern holdings is usually negligible to be worth major social upheaval of redistributing for pitifull results such redistributing could possibly bring.

 In Russia they just issued the "vouchers" on full value of former Soviet Uion's state assets and split those equally among population - like stock shares. You would not say that happened less than a decare ago by looking at the inequalities there...

 How currently living people obtain property - in societies that allow private proplerty to speak of - by inheritance, by acquisition through exchange for other property or services, etc.

how a new individual leaving his parents domain can build a new one?

 An individual starts with whatever parents or others have given him and adds to it through exchange - his services/labor for other people's property. Basically, he has to work for it - engage in commerce or production, etc. Nothing new and radical here.

 miko

Offline MrBill

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« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2003, 10:41:02 AM »
Very interesting and a well thought out discourse.

I would take exception with your "rights", however.
I believe that you have defined "privilege" well, but that has nothing to do with rights, imo.  
I believe that a right is, for example breathing, it just is.  It requires no other help, permission, or legislation, outside your "domain".
This is not to say that a right can not be taken from you by persons or situations, just that they can not be granted to you, they just are.

Just my opinion.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2003, 11:13:38 AM by MrBill »
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Offline Naso

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« Reply #5 on: February 21, 2003, 11:01:09 AM »
Well, not really radical, but I am doing an effort of imagination....

Apply what you see in a dense territory/population like Italy.

First, reasoning on your ideal citizen, we have to change the usual social behaviour here, for example we have to took away the Rights (intended your way) of the newborns, and lot of other rights, since everything will be regulated by agreements, contracts, and... well... force.

(we are tooking away Love, since your society seem to lack this particular social element, but i am digressing).

In a world like mine, were the resources are few, and litterally there is'nt enough "domain" for everyone, you will find a good... well... huge amount of people "exchanging" services for the mere food needed for survival, as it was in the end of 19 century, when Marx doctrine started.

Since the man seem tendencially bad, the needings of the newborns, or the entire families, are a good mean to estabilish a "lord-slave" situation.

I can see your objection about the market, the free market.

But when (and here is the case) all the resources and the physical domains are in the hands of one of the parties and the other one have only his work to offer, without regulation there will be a position by the... owner type, of big strenght, opposed to a extreme weak position of the non-owner.

This seem to create a situation in witch soon or later 2 facts will arise:

1) Social Darwinism - people with lesser "domain-pool" ;) compared to gene-pool, will adapt themselves to live in a lower niche, with a waste of human resources, since the survival is not determined by the capacity of the individual, but by the Heritage he acquire.

2) Social predatorism (? lol a new term? :) ) - continuing with the natural analogy, in a dense, saturated society, soon or later, a group of "wolves" will unite and attack, kill, and eat the carcass (domain) of the huge erbivorous.

Homo Homini lupus.

What you have in mind, what mechanism you think of, to avoid this kind of evolution?

Offline miko2d

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« Reply #6 on: February 21, 2003, 12:11:10 PM »
Mr Bill - you are talking about the words, not real things.
 I am not sure I can make a better analogy than between funny-looking paper and the same paper being treated as money but I will try.

 One cannot call whatever one wishes "my rights" - or rather one can but he shouldn't expect it to have any validity for others.
 As far as I am concerned, the only rights of others relevant to me are those that result in obligations on me. Any other thing that one cares to call "right" that is not an obligation on me is completely irrelevant to me and one can call it whatever he wants with my blessing.
 Any thing that is a new obligation on me - especially imposed without my concent - I will take exception to that.

 Like "funny money", I can completely disregard validity of your statement here and ignore it - but I cannot disregard the statement from my boss or commanding officer. That is because my boss has a right to have his funny ideas honored by me and you do not. Or rather, I have the obligation to him (voluntarily accepted with employment) and not to you, whatever your wishes may be in that regard.

 What is real in your "right to breathe" is obligations of others not to interfere with your breezing. It is obligations to others to stop me if I do try to illegaly interfere with your breathing. It is even an obligation on our government to protect you from pollution "internal and foreign".

 You are absolutely right about you not requiring "permisssion" outside of my domain - but your view on breathing outside athmosphere is still a bit simplistic because it misses a lot of things you take for granted of do not notice but which involve a bunch of rights and obligatons embodied in our laws, customs and traditions.
 Some cultures treated wild animals just like you are treating the air now - you use any as long as the other guys is not using that particular one. But you are not outraged by having to obtain a hunting permit while for a native it would have been incomprehencible. Becasue there is a huge fundamental difference between a resource not owned and a resource commonly owned even if the use seems similar. All in the culture.

 Ownership of air in the athmosphere is traditionally and legally accepted as communal property. So the athmosphere is really your domain - communally owned. That's it. No more, no less.
 It is not "just is".

 Of course private domain is different as you've noted - if we dive and you run out of air, you have no rights whatsoever to breathe from my private air-tank, unless we have a prior agreement to that effect.
 If I own an under-ocean habitat or a space station or a house that cleans the athmoshere that may be uninhabitable outside or concentrates it at high altitudes  - in other words if the air there is not part of the commonly-owned athmosphere - you have absolutely no right to breeze it without my concent. Because I have no obligation to provide it to you.

 Otherwise I would be obligated to produce breathable air - at possibly considerable effort - for everyone showing up. I would be saddled with more obligations at other people's whim. Affected by their actions and decisions in which I have no say. That would constitute clear oppression of me.

 Likewise since I am obligated to pay taxes for healthcare and education, allowing illegal immigrants to be automatically entitled to it is an oppression since the obligations are enforced on me without my concent. The legal immirgrants, on the other hand, I assume the obligations voluntarily since I have a say (through laws) on admitting them.
 Of course if I did not have to pay taxes for healthcare and education, there would be absolutely no difference to me between legal and illegal immigration in that respect. Might matter politically or militarily though.

 That is an apparent inconsistency between libertarian appeal for  unrestricted immigration but against illegal immigration - the former is only valid in non-coercive state.


Naso: for example we have to took away the Rights...

 No. We would have to stop imposing obligations - other than obligation not to violate other's domain. Stop oppression in other words.

everything will be regulated by agreements, contracts, and... well... force

 Definitely not force - absolutely not! The only legal use of force is in protecting someone's domain from being violated.

we are tooking away Love, since your society seem to lack this particular social element...

 I suspect you are trying to pervert my words. I did not mention love and I should not. Love is a feeling. Expression of love in a society is a free interaction of individuals. As long as it is voluntary, nobody's domain is violated and the society is not concerned. Or do you think Love must be legislated and enforced?

 In fact, the socialism deprives people from need to exercise love and compassion by making it moral obligation of the state rather than individuals. That really corrupts people's morals.

In a world like mine, were the resources are few, and litterally there is'nt enough "domain" for everyone

 Not only would free marked ensure distribution of the scarse resources no worse than arbitrary redestribution system by despotic authority - even elected one - free market is the mechanism most conducive to increase in productivity and wealth and creation of more resources to be distributed. Most of the value that we have now is produced - land and raw resources constitute miniscule and more importantly declining fraction of it compared to labor and intellectual property. Your "scarcity" views got obslete withg Malthus.
 Spleaking of Italy, with your birth rate, you will not need to worry of scarcity much longer. A pity... :(

Since the man seem tendencially bad, the needings of the newborns, or the entire families, are a good mean to estabilish a "lord-slave" situation.

 In a free society every interaction is a voluntary one and absent of fraud - which is still illegal - presents the best choice of both parties. So by preventing a poor guy from taking employment at low wage you make him into an even worse "second choice". After all if he had a better option, he would have taken it. The rich guy would be hurt a bit but not hiring more workers at a price that woudl make more production cost-effective, but the poor guy will suffer much worse.

 We all make decisions - including where to live, how many children to have and when and with which mates (big boobs vs. smarts/health). Why people that do not affect those decisions must be saddled with responcibilities for their consequences? What would ever make them assume such responcibilities outher than coersion? If you want to help personally - why, nobody is stopping you from charity.

owner type, of big strenght, opposed to a extreme weak position of the non-owner

 Capital is only of value if it is providing services to the people who are not owners of that capital - customers.

 About your points on social darwinism and social predatorism - in a coercive society they still exist in worse forms since the social mobility and openness of the free society are the greatest.

 You buy what you need with money and you have no influence on other people. In non-free societies like ours, besides honestly-earned money you have other currencies - political influence, family connections, sexual favors, bribes, etc. A poor guy has much less chance to succeed in that system than in a free-maret one. He only has his abilities to offer... Unless he is a qute girl willing to put out to old perverts.

 There is always Darwinism - more capable people usually achieve more success than less capable ones. What's wrong with is that must be cured by oppression?
 In a free market their success has greatest chance to benefit others since the only way to succeed is providing actuall services that others need better than compatition. No wastefull pork-barrel spending, no make-up work, no political and bureaucratic advancement.

 Also, the notion of success and failure is different. Why do you count material wealth only?
 Since when christians cared much about wealth anyway - and those are still majority of western population?

 I have a different notion altogether. Wouldn't you say that a couple that brought three healthy children to adulthood is much more successfull than a couple that raised only two? Regardless of any other sircumstances whatsoever?
 That is my position and quite a few owuld share it. Would you believe that we should prevent americans from procreating and/or rape women in Italy (italians here have large families, btw) to boost your birth rate - in the name of equality? Maybe just take children from parents and redistribute them?

 Free society/free market just leaves people alone to build their lives the way they choose, according to their values - Love, Wealth, Children, Charity, Work, Knowlege. No elected busybody to ride the herd.


 Anyway, why should an individual be coerced into purposes that "society" in the form of politicians consider most worthy? Such purposes change every day while indivdual values may vary but they persist for millenia?
 
 
 miko
« Last Edit: February 21, 2003, 12:36:56 PM by miko2d »

Offline Naso

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« Reply #7 on: February 21, 2003, 07:48:27 PM »
Miko, to avoid future misunderstandings:

You seem to understand that I am... twisted(?)... toward a socialist type of society.

I am not, believe me.

You asked to discuss your idea, and I am glad to do it.
I have no intentions to blame/destroy/offend you ideas, just trying to point places were it is... in contrast with what I see around me, sociologic speaking.

That said we can continue without presuming one is bashing/attacking the other.

(Let's not fall in the latest O'club fashion ;) ).

It's little late here, will post something tomorrow, if you care ;)

Offline Karnak

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« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2003, 03:19:01 AM »
The problem with that idea miko2d is the same as the problem with Communism.  It assumes that A) people are basically good and B) those that are not can be restrained by the governing legal authority.  This has been demostrated to be false repeatedly in history.

Naso is quite correct in pointing out that this kind of hands off free market leads very quickly to the establishment of a permanent underclass from which it is nearly impossible to escape.  The owners need not pay their employees above a base sustanance level because their employees are not their customers.  Their customers are the middle class that is employed in skilled jobs for which they can demand adequate compensation for without simply being replaced by the next guy on the street for daring to make demands of their "betters".  The lower class has no such bargaining chip, which is directly what lead to the creation of Unions and worker friendly government regulations.

Your idea is fine if you are comfortable with a sizable chunk of the population living a miserable life with no hope of bettering their position or the position of their children.

Personally I am not comfortable with that and am willing to sacrifice a part of my income in order to avoid living in such a society.
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Offline Naso

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« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2003, 04:21:38 AM »
As Karnak said, way better than me in my poor english :)

Offline miko2d

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« Reply #10 on: February 24, 2003, 04:56:38 PM »
Naso: I have no intentions to blame/destroy/offend you ideas, just trying to point places were it is...
That said we can continue without presuming one is bashing/attacking the other.


 I understand that. I was a bit taken aback when you somehow implied that government of a free society built on libertarian principles would somehow be able to outlaw or restrict expression of Love. There was nothing to suggest that in my essay.
 The only thing government restricts is violating other people's domain and body. It cannot affect anything else - not your charity, not you sexual preferences or marital customs (polygamy?).


Karnak: The problem with that idea miko2d is the same as the problem with Communism. It assumes that A) people are basically good and B) those that are not can be restrained by the governing legal authority.

 Your point A) is absolutely wrong - the libertarian ideology assumes quite the opposite what you suggested. It assumes that people are not basically good. In fact, it errs on the safe side and treats people as basically bad and selfish. So we want to restrict political power of the state because those "no-good" people are the most likely ones to get attracted to it.
 If you want something from me, the only way to get it legally is to persuade me or to offer me an acceptable exchange. No way for anyone to enact a law to make me do what I do not want - majority or not.

 Your point B) is irrelevant to the current discussion. In a libertarian free state the government's legal authority is supposed to protect people from violence, theft and fraud.
 The other kinds of governments have same responcibilites too. What makes you think that a libertarian government that only does those things and nothing else would do it any worse than any other government?


Naso is quite correct in pointing out that this kind of hands off free market leads very quickly to the establishment of a permanent underclass from which it is nearly impossible to escape.

 That is just not true. That statement is contrary to the economic science and historical evidence.
 Whenever poverty conditions persisted for a long time, it was specifically because the governmet restricted free market, did not protect the property rights or caught people in the welfare net.

 As society develops, the fraction of labor in the production falls while teh fraction of the capital - money, equipment increases. It becomes irrational to save few dollars on a worker's salary while he is entrusted with a few millions worth of equipment.
 Productivity increases not because the people became more biologically capable but because production becomes better-equpped. That allows the price of goods to drop so the real wages of workers increas even while the nominal ones stay unchanged.
 The capitalist does not care who buys his product - middle class or poor people. As long as he can make it cheaper and sell it to more people, he is going to make more money.
 The USA in 1800 and beginning of 1900 saw stable increase in wages and living conditions - even despite huge inflow of desperate immigrants willing to take low wage. If those immigrants were not coming, teh labor market would have been tighter, the salaries would have grown even faster and the technological progress would have been even faster. USA had no responcibility for the recent immigrants being poor and unskilled and they all achieved great inclreas in wealth in their lifetime and their children mostly became the middle class.

 miko

Offline Gorf

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« Reply #11 on: February 24, 2003, 05:47:36 PM »
Okay my 2 cents,

You all lost me:)

Keep up the theoratical debate.

I think that if we won't to have a better America, we need the best ideas of the liberals along with the best ideas of conservatives.

If you have an all liberal government in its truest sense.. would never work.  It would lead to Chaos.

A concervative government in its truest sense would never work, it would lead to opression and the seperation between classes would be as wide as the grand canyon.

Me beeing a semi right wing person, more to the middle, thinks that with all these RIGHTS and FREEDOMS and people forgetting that these have responsiblities.  Has caused a major decline in our society.  Lack of moral values and discapline.  Teenage pregenancy is going down but compared to 40 years ago.. throught the roof.  Crime involving murder, drugs, etcc  throught the roof.  All because of inproper discapline.  THanks to the liberals.  Our criminal justice system is a joke. You can get off for just about anything and if you go to jail, hell you get cable TV, full exersize room..no REAL insentive to change..all because of..THEY deserve rights.. umm they commited crime,,they deserve a tiny cell, no TV, and pay for their crimes.   NO I will go see a psychologist and all will be okay. Only rights they get is to be given is human.  A clean Cell, Proper food and no abuse.  THis type of jail time kind of kept the decline of seriouse crimes because life in jail was no heaven..and more of ahell.  

Another example of rights and liberal failure to grasp reality, in Kansas, if someone has a  at your door and threats your life.  You defend yourself and he dies.  If he falls outside your door into the yard. His MAMA could come back or the state and put you in jail for murder.. however. if he falls inside.. its okay.  Now is this stupid or what, this type of stupidity in our law is thanks to A group of liberals trying to find any loop hole in the law and say it is part of rights and freedom.


HOWEVER, on a anti rightest stand, if you played all the law by what the rightest in theory push, people would be going to jail without proper research into the issue.  Taking things more by face value rather then looking between the lines.

ANyway,  the LIBERAL RIGHTS and FREEDOM pushers are a bunch of tree huggers.  They WANT this THEY WANT THAT  WE CAN live in PEACE all over the world with a big BUTT sized DUBBIE in our hands.  BUT yet they don't want to earn it, defend the country that gives them these rights.
To slap your happy buts in reality,, the only way we can live in PERFECT HARMONY is doing the following:

Get rid of religion and any other belief system
Get rid of a monetary system.
Get rid of all forms of government.

HOWEVER, right now we have a HOLY CRUSADING REPUBLICAN who wants to bully the world because we are most powerful COuntry on earth.

I believe in a strong military, and yes it helps the country economically, look how many towns have collapsed and local economies have collopsed because of CLinton,  BUT.. IF WE got to war with IRAQ because of gun happy presidant ....  liberal or conservative... doesn't matter.  Life is going to become HELL for everyone.

Offline miko2d

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« Reply #12 on: February 24, 2003, 07:25:39 PM »
BTW, Karnak - what made you think that libertarian state relies on people being "good" in order to work?
 The whole beauty of the free market is that it is the only arrangement that allows people to engage in selfish persuits while producing public good.
 Nobody needs anyone's goodwill for the market to work, economy to develop and wealth to be created and distributed to all people, rich and poor - read Adam Smith on the "Invisible Hand".


 Gorf - did you by any chance confuse "liberal" and "libertarian", which are complete opposites, and failed to notice it from the content of my post?

A concervative government in its truest sense would never work, it would lead to opression and the seperation between classes would be as wide as the grand canyon.

 Strange. Your view stated so far is marxist. But all marxsists (outside Russia) that I knew were certainly more politically knowleageable and would never confuse as many things as you did in your post. :)


 miko

Offline Hangtime

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Rights, liberty and the Rule of Law.
« Reply #13 on: February 24, 2003, 08:27:22 PM »
Quote
So when someone gets more rights it really means some other people get saddled with obligations. The more rights are “given”, the more - rather than less - restrictive a society becomes! That is very important to remember when you hear a politician granting or calling fore more rights for some – it really means more obligations/restrictions for others, hence oppression.


We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Shall I put up the entire Bill of Rights, with ammendments and articles; that estabilsh my RIGHTS? ? Tell me.. who are the 'opressed' you refer to?

Speak frankly now.. what 'rights' as granted by the Constitution does the Libertarian Party seek to have recinded?

Miko.. I've been waiting for yah! And, gawdamned if yah didn't pop up with the lock-stock bag of smoke and mirrors replete with libertarian lines of gibberish. To paraphrase Anatole France: "How noble libertarianism, in its majestic equality, that both rich and poor are equally prohibited from peeing in the privately owned streets (without paying), sleeping under the privately owned bridges (without paying), and coercing bread from its rightful owners!"

Data Point:

The foremost defenders of our freedoms and rights, which you libertarians prefer we overlook, are our governments. National defense, police, courts, registries of deeds, public defenders, the Constitution and the Bill Of Rights, etc. all are government efforts that work towards defending freedoms and rights.

What would you put in it's place?
The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.

Offline Hangtime

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Rights, liberty and the Rule of Law.
« Reply #14 on: February 24, 2003, 09:03:05 PM »
note:  I'd very much like this to be a rational discussion.. so i'll attempt to refrain from calling you a commie pinko libertarian-leftist marxsit anarchist tool of Rand and Hayek.

:)

Oh.. and I can't give the discussion a 24/7 watch, but I promise to up at least one debunking per evening of what ever it is your libertarian/scientologist coaches feel makes for good convincing copy.

Let the games begin.

:D
The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.