Author Topic: Grun & Mark AT...... Confederates :D  (Read 2079 times)

Offline GRUNHERZ

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Grun & Mark AT...... Confederates :D
« Reply #45 on: February 27, 2003, 11:28:39 AM »
Slavery was banned by the major European poeers early in the 1800s. Internatinal slave trad was also banned. I think only Brazil and the Southern states in the western/european world had slavery to such an extent by the 1850s and 1860s.  I dont think Robert E Lee was so stupid or blind when he faught for virgina that one of the things he was fighting for was indeed the institution of slavery.  Its quite clear slavery was largely taboo in the west by the mid 1800s.

As to slavery not being a key cause to secession and your arguments that the real reasons were economic differences between north and south and some issues of "states rights" with the exception of slavery.  The key economic difference between north and south are rooted in slavery. The south was agricultural and was involved in the international trade of those goods - their agricultural system was based on large slave labor plantations. All implications of tjose ecomomic differences then are rooted in slavery. And thats why the south faught so hard before the war for expansion of slavery in the west and Kansas - they were afraid of becoming isolated if no more slave states joined the union.  

States rights. Why didnt states like massachussets or pensylania secede? Surely the opressive federal governmebt took away their rights.  The fact is the southern states were ultimately afraid of loosing their states rights to slavery because of northern abolitinists influence and federal meddling as was seen in the 1850s with regards to the westward expansion of slavery.

And its a funny thing how the nazis also made similar arguments but they are not valid because there are still people of that generation alive?  Im not sure how that makes sense Toad.  The simple matter is both cause were misguided and supported evil things while both made somwhat valid excuses for their actions.

Offline Toad

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« Reply #46 on: February 27, 2003, 11:32:17 AM »
Note I said "roots".

We'll agree to disagree then.

At least I got you two out of the airplane thread, eh?
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline -ammo-

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Grun & Mark AT...... Confederates :D
« Reply #47 on: February 27, 2003, 11:35:54 AM »
I am almost surpised that no one has mentioned that there were several officials and prominent northerners that were slave owners  (I understand that Ulysses Grant himself was a slave owner).  Also,  am I correct in stating that the Immancipation Proclamation released only those slaves in the southern states,  not those above the mason dixon line?

edited for puncuation
« Last Edit: February 27, 2003, 11:38:43 AM by -ammo- »
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Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #48 on: February 27, 2003, 11:36:02 AM »
Yea, this was a good thread on it's own. :)

Offline midnight Target

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« Reply #49 on: February 27, 2003, 11:47:01 AM »
Took me a minute.... or two.


http://members.aol.com/jfepperson/aladem.html


Quote

Platform of the Alabama Democracy
Adopted at Montgomery, January, 1860

1. Resolved by the Democracy of the State of Alabama, in Convention assembled, That holding all issues and principles upon which they have heretofore affiliated and acted with the National Democratic party to be inferior in dignity and importance to the great question of slavery, they content themselves with a general re-affirmance of the Cincinnati Platform as to such issues, and also endorse said platform as to slavery, together with the following resolutions:

2. Resolved further, That we re-affirm so much of the first resolution of the Platform adopted in Convention by the Democracy of this State, on the 8th of January, 1856, as relates to the subject of slavery, to wit: "The unqualified right of the people of the slaveholding States to the Protection of their property in the States, in the Territories, and in the wilderness in which Territorial Governments are as yet unorganized."

3. Resolved further, That in order to meet and clear away all obstacles to a full enjoyment of this right in the Territories, we re-affirm the principle of the 9th resolution of the Platform adopted in Convention by the Democracy of this State on the 14th of February, 1848, to wit: "That it is the duty of the General Government, by all proper legislation, to secure an entry into those Territories to all the citizens of the United States, together with their property of every description, and that the same should remain protected by the United States while the Territories are under its authority."


At least in the State of Alabama, slavery seemed to be the most important issue.

Offline Toad

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Grun & Mark AT...... Confederates :D
« Reply #50 on: February 27, 2003, 11:49:03 AM »
Quote
"That on the first day of January, in the year of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and sixty-three, all persons held as slaves within any State or designated part of a State, the people whereof shall then be in rebellion against the United States, shall be then, thenceforward, and forever free; and the Executive Government of the United States, including the military and naval authority thereof, will recognize and maintain the freedom of such persons, and will do no act or acts to repress such persons, or any of them, in any efforts they may make for their actual freedom.


It did not apply to slaves in border states fighting on
the Union side; nor did it affect slaves in southern areas already
under Union control. It would not apply to any State or part of a State that was under Union control or renounced sucession by January 1863...it was issued 22 September 1862.

Pretty thin as support for a "war against slavery", isn't it? Slaves are OK... unless they're in a State or part of a State still in rebellion against the Federal Government.  

;)
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline midnight Target

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Grun & Mark AT...... Confederates :D
« Reply #51 on: February 27, 2003, 12:06:13 PM »
You are twisting the point a might bit there TOAD. (Notice 19th century slang to get in the mood).
Never said it was a "War against slavery", I said Slavery was the primary cause of the seccession.

Quote
May 3, 1860: Democratic Convention adjourns after Deep South delegations withdraw over the slavery plank in the platform.


Then there is
Quote
The Crittenden Compromise was one of several last-ditch efforts to resolve the secession crisis of 1860-61 by political negotiation. Authored by Kentucky Senator John Crittenden (whose two sons would become generals on opposite sides of the Civil War) it was an attempt to resolve the crisis by addressing the concerns that led the states of the Lower South to contemplate secession. As such, it gives a window into what the politicians of the day thought the cause of the crisis to be.
The Compromise, as offered on December 18, 1860, consisted of a preamble, six (proposed) constitutional amendments, and four (proposed) Congressional resolutions. The text given here is taken from a photocopy of the Congressional Globe for December 18, 1860.


The full text is
found here

All 6 of the proposed amendments dealt with the issue of slavery.

Offline Leslie

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Grun & Mark AT...... Confederates :D
« Reply #52 on: February 27, 2003, 01:01:33 PM »
roadkill.

Offline Toad

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« Reply #53 on: February 27, 2003, 01:23:42 PM »
Incisive comment there Leslie. All of it, some of it or just one part of it all?  ;)
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Toad

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« Reply #54 on: February 27, 2003, 01:42:31 PM »
Gotta go work out, MT. Will return to this later. Just a note though; look at the platform adopted by the Dems in June, 1860 and tell me where it's anti-slavery.

Back later, but for now:

Quote

The intensifying sectional conflict signalled by the Dred Scott decision helped to splinter the Democratic party into three factions, each of which nominated a candidate to oppose Lincoln. Northern Democrats generally supported Stephen A. Douglas, Lincoln's old rival from Illinois; the "Little Giant" supported the notion of "popular sovereignty" and opposed a move by Southerners to include a repressive slave code plank in the Democratic platform.

After Douglas' nomination, a group of Southern delegates left the Democratic convention and adopted their own, more stringent proslavery platform. They eventually nominated John C. Breckinridge, Vice President of the proslavery Buchanan administration.

An effort to reunite the Democrats at a new convention failed when Douglas supporters blocked a move to readmit the Southern "bolters" who left the first convention.

he more moderate Southerners, claiming a power base located mainly the northern areas of the South, called themselves the Constitutional Union party and nominated John Bell of Tenessee on a platform calling for preserving the Union and enforcing its laws.

Despite the fact that the Republicans nominated Lincoln precisely because he was the consummate moderate on the issue of slavery, and therefore stood the best chance of carrying critical Northern states... .

... With only about 40 percent of the popular vote, Lincoln garnered 180 of the 303 electoral college votes, a testament to the comparative power of the Northern states. The splintering of the opposing party undoubtedly contributed to his victory; if the Democrats had pooled their votes, they may have been able to swing a sufficient number of Northern states their way.


Looks to me like the Dems self-destructed which undoubtedly helped Lincoln win. Remember, however, that Lincoln was the "moderate" on slavery.

So if you're going to make the case that the slavery issue fractionated the Dems, giving Lincoln, a moderate on slavery the White House and THIS caused secession... well, I can see the train, but I think it's a bit of a reach and ignores the State's Rights issues that underly the ENTIRE situation.

Again, look at the changes made to the US Constitution in the Confederate version. I think that tells you where THEY, the secessionists, think the problem was.

Off to work out. Later.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Charon

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Grun & Mark AT...... Confederates :D
« Reply #55 on: February 27, 2003, 02:42:48 PM »
LOL. A debated thread between Grunherz and Toad, and I have to say Grun articulates my beliefs pretty much point by point. one and all for a reasonable debate. I'm surprised this topic took so long to come up.

Charon

Offline midnight Target

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« Reply #56 on: February 27, 2003, 02:48:36 PM »
From the Douglas Faction of the Dems.


6. Resolved, That the enactments of the State Legislatures to defeat the faithful execution of the Fugitive Slave Law, are hostile in character, subversive of the Constitution, and revolutionary in their effect.

Offline Toad

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« Reply #57 on: February 27, 2003, 05:13:36 PM »
Take a look at that again, MT.

I think it is saying that attempts to defeat the faithful execution of the Fugitive slave law are wrong.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline midnight Target

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« Reply #58 on: February 27, 2003, 05:29:11 PM »
That is exactly what it is saying. Obviously an attempt to placate the souther faction of the Democratic party. Just more evidence that Slavery was "THE" issue. Attempts to downplay the role of slavery is just revisionism.

(I mean that with all due respect BTW. I am not comparing you to a Nazi apologist or a holocaust revisionist in any way..... sheesh I can just imagine the flame war that would start!)

Offline X2Lee

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« Reply #59 on: February 27, 2003, 07:06:03 PM »
Quote


 

Again a circular argument. "Presereve the Union" was the cause, but why was it being sundered? You and I both know that Slavery was the prime cause no matter how you spin the wording. [/B]


This is not true. Word it how you want it. It was not about slavery.