Author Topic: Good Antiwar Argument  (Read 2287 times)

Offline funkedup

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Good Antiwar Argument
« on: February 26, 2003, 07:05:21 PM »
It Could Cost $100 Billion

That's something like $350 per person in the US.  I pay more taxes than average so I figure my share is about $700.  So that's the cost.

What is the benefit?  IMHO it would be improved safety in that the likelihood of an NBC attack on the US by terrorists or Iraqi agents would be decreased slightly.  Another benefit is that the Iraqi people would get freedom from a brutal dictator and a chance at a democratic government

Time for cost/benefit analysis:

Would I get $700 worth of safety from Saddam's demise?  
I think I could get a lot more safety if we spent $100B on drug rehab, birth control and education.  Or $100B to provide mandatory handguns for adult males with no criminal record and no history of mental disturbance.  Or $100B to provide free taxis for drunk drivers.  Etc. etc. etc.

Would I get $700 worth of satisfaction from knowing that Iraqis are free from a sadistic dictator?  I'm not sure about that one.  I would get some satisfaction, but I would probably get more satisfaction out of a PC upgrade or new wheels for my car, or airfare to visit my squaddies in Poland.

So IMHO they probably need to bring the price down a bit.  The only way I see that happening is if we get the rest of the free world to do their share on this one.

Offline Vulcan

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« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2003, 07:15:53 PM »
Yes Funked but think of it as an investment...

Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #2 on: February 26, 2003, 07:42:07 PM »
I just paid $2.09 a gallon for 87... Invade now get it over with!!!!!

Offline Sandman

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« Reply #3 on: February 26, 2003, 07:52:21 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
I just paid $2.09 a gallon for 87... Invade now get it over with!!!!!


Invade Venezuela?
sand

Offline mietla

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« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2003, 07:53:35 PM »
$100 billion is equivalent to two weeks of federal spending. Just shut down the government and hold the welfare checks for two weeks, and voila ... the war is paid for.

Offline john9001

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« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2003, 07:54:49 PM »
a cost/benefit analysis says World War Two was a waste  of money and lives.  bean counters , oh brother

Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #6 on: February 26, 2003, 08:46:27 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
Invade Venezuela?


I heard this was a war for oil, and nelson mandela told me personally that iraq had some 76% of the worlds oil.  Well dammit econ says  you can lower prices by increasing supply so lets go get that 76% oil and get it over with!

And Sandman you fool you are so out of date, the cold war is over and the racist evil CIA is done with attacking swarthy brown mexican coutries - now they after swarty  brown muslim countries. Get up with the times old man!


YES WAR FOR OIL!  :D

Offline crowMAW

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« Reply #7 on: February 26, 2003, 09:32:13 PM »
I agree Funked...I don't give a rats bellybutton about the Iraqi people...if they don't like the government, they need to get rid of Saddam themselves and not expect  others to shed blood to set them free.  What is freedom really worth if some other country paid for it?

As far as security goes, I am no more scared of Saddam than I am of Kadhafi.  He is a non entity.  He does not have the weapons or delivery systems to harm the US.

ON THE OTHER HAND, I am afraid of North Korea.  This is a country that has successfully tested ballistic missiles capable of hitting every major military instillation in the Pacific, including Hawaii and some west coast cities (our on Defense Department confirms this).  And a country that fully admits that it has two facilities working feverishly on producing weapons grade nuclear material.  Now let me ask you, which country would you consider more dangerous?  

If Israel knew of a hostile country that had missiles capable of hitting their country and had a facility working on developing nukes, how long do you think it would be before that facility would be dust?

Offline john9001

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« Reply #8 on: February 26, 2003, 10:19:10 PM »
crow , your post is full of mis-statements and half-truths, and you are a WAR MONGER for wanting to "rush to war " with NK when diplomatic negotiations are still under way, the UN has to pass many resolutions before war can take place.  (see iraq )

give peace a chance
cum ba yah m'lord ,cum ba yah

Offline Toad

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« Reply #9 on: February 26, 2003, 10:40:12 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by crowMAW
I agree Funked...I don't give a rats bellybutton about the Iraqi people...if they don't like the government, they need to get rid of Saddam themselves and not expect  others to shed blood to set them free.  What is freedom really worth if some other country paid for it?


Agree 100%. If they really wanted to be free of him there'd be a "Tienanmen Square" incident in the entire country by the populace. But you won't see it.

Heck, what would you do in their shoes, knowing that sooner or later the Great Satan will come do all the dying for ya? To top it off, GS will then rebuild your country and feed you while they're doing it.

Why not chill out and have a coffee and a smoke?

Quote
Originally posted by crowMAW
As far as security goes, I am no more scared of Saddam than I am of Kadhafi.  He is a non entity.


Agree.
 
Quote
Originally posted by crowMAW
ON THE OTHER HAND, I am afraid of North Korea.


Disagree.

Best thing we could do is withdraw from the Korean peninsula. Totally removes NK's argument about a threat from the US. Would probably focus South Korea's mind on just how bad it was having us around. Blue UN flag would still fly along the DMZ; French troops can replace ours on a 1 for 1 swapout as we leave. Japan and China would probably focus more on Korea too.

The NK nuke program has been evaluated by IAEA Director General Mohamed ElBaradei. Speaking to the international press corps 12 February in Vienna, he underlined that "the key to resolution of issues is full and prompt compliance" and North Korea "must take the first step." The issue now is before the UN Security Council. We should abstain from any discussion on it. Let's play China's role for a while and let the others solve this problem.

So, THIS is supposedly what the UN is for, correct? This is what the world wants us to do with respect to Iraq. Let the Security Council handle NK as we withdraw.

Does NK threaten us? With us off the peninsula and with them having extremely limited capability, I don't see them as a real threat. NK knows that we are one of their largest sources of donated food. Further, they know that ALL donations will likely stop if they attack anyone. Beyond that, they KNOW we can still obliterate the place with overlapping circles of nuclear fireballs.

They'll continue to try to give us the old lunchroom bully's shakedown, but they won't attempt to kill the golden goose.

Just my .02.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Sandman

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« Reply #10 on: February 26, 2003, 10:59:08 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
I heard this was a war for oil, and nelson mandela told me personally that iraq had some 76% of the worlds oil.  Well dammit econ says  you can lower prices by increasing supply so lets go get that 76% oil and get it over with!

And Sandman you fool you are so out of date, the cold war is over and the racist evil CIA is done with attacking swarthy brown mexican coutries - now they after swarty  brown muslim countries. Get up with the times old man!


YES WAR FOR OIL!  :D


The reason the gas has increased in price today has nothing to do with Iraq and everything to do with Venezuela.

Who's the fool?
sand

Offline Hangtime

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« Reply #11 on: February 26, 2003, 11:03:11 PM »
annex canada and mexico.
The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.

Offline Dowding

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« Reply #12 on: February 27, 2003, 03:05:59 AM »
Quote
Agree 100%. If they really wanted to be free of him there'd be a "Tienanmen Square" incident in the entire country by the populace. But you won't see it.


What about Basra in 91 when the Shi'ites rose up and overthrew the local Saddam-ites? That was brutally put down - we can see the mass graves from space.

What about the Kurdish uprising in 91? That was brutally put down and the people fled to the mountains.

They've tried - and failed - to overthrow Saddam over the years - and the results have been 10 times worse than Tienanmen Square in terms of body count.

Whip out google and do a search, mate. :D
War! Never been so much fun. War! Never been so much fun! Go to your brother, Kill him with your gun, Leave him lying in his uniform, Dying in the sun.

Offline beet1e

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« Reply #13 on: February 27, 2003, 05:37:51 AM »
Dowding - I agree with what you say above, but that's what leads me to disagree with you on something else. I say we should give two fingers to the UN (or one finger if you're American) because, IIRC, it was the UN that made Pop Bush stop the war in 1991 - prematurely as we now see. The result was as you said above - bad news for the Iraqis, and worse than Tienanmen Square. Given that the resulting bloodshed was caused (indirectly) by the UN, you see why I don't want to wait for another UN vote/resolution, or for further "last" chances to be given to Saddam.

The other good reason for not waiting also applied last time. That Gulf region is going to start heating up soon. The indigenous population might be able to cope with the heat, but imagine what it's going to be like for our guys, doing battle in the sort of heat they can expect there later on - especially if they have to wear those chemical warfare suits. My initial estimate for the beginning of overt hostilities was March 2. But I've had to revise that because of too much UN dilly-dallying.

BTW Dowding, are you following the SAS fitness selection programme on BBC2, 9pm Sundays? Flippin'eck!!! I can't even imagine doing what they have to do, now or at any other time in my life. :eek:

Offline StSanta

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« Reply #14 on: February 27, 2003, 06:55:29 AM »
Funkedup, you need to add to the cost the cost of increased security measures due to increased terrorist threat. And the loss of life and property in the event of an attack.

An attack is extremely likely - Saddam has standng orders for it to happen if the US strikes. And there are lots of freelancing terrorists that'll get new recruits in the events of a war.

The cost also has other more qualitative sides. As witnessed in Afghanistan, it is hard to create a democracy. Iraq is as divided as the Balkans is culturally and there'll be an struggle for democracy to be put int place.  This will cost too.

If the resentment grows enough in various populations, some Middle Eastern government might be overthrown. Oil prices go up.

A few bombs on planes or at tourist resorts will hit those sectors very hard. Add that as well.

Of course all that can happen without a war, but a war makes them much more likely to occur.

Many hidden costs, aside from the obvious expenditure on fuel, bombs, surveillance, logistics and the like.

Unlike some here, I care a great deal about the Iraqi people. I've met refugees here - they're quite well educated, extremely kind and very resilient. I seem them sort of like the Polacks during the Soviet occupation.

By far they're nicer than Somalis, Palestinians etc as a cultural group - and more western. Was invited to the home of an ex chopper pilot from Iraq who fought in the Iran-Iraq war and briefly in the Gulf (that is, he flew his chopper for a few miles, landed, exited, waited a few hours and saw it get blown up by an unseen bomber). Very friendly environment and they do everything for their guests - quite unlike Danes or westerners in general. The chap offered me his bed, opting to sleep on the floor. I declined of course, but the offer was genuine. I do think that Arab culture in this regard is superior to western one - if they had $10 left, they'd give you 7 and keep 3 if you were in need. At least the educated types I've met. I do not dismiss their hospitality - yes, I disagree with their views on women etc, but I also recognize good aspects of their culture, and bad about my own.

I think they deserve to claim their nation back. $700 I'd pay. Add a 0 and I'd pay that too.

Once you meet the people, your views change. If you sit and hang around your ethnic group with the same view all the time, it is much easier not to give a damn about other cultural and ethnic groups. Me, I cannot be that...low.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2003, 07:03:13 AM by StSanta »