109 series discussion in the MA

[Don]

There was a heated discussion over CH1 last night between Wildeman and several others regarding the 109. I couldn't help but overhear
It seems the gist of it was that a case was being made that the AH 109 G 10 is the equivalent of the 109K. Official sources were cited etc. and it seemd as if Wildeman was digging in his heels. So, I came across this at another web site. And can clarify this a bit.

>>Aircraft in the 780,000 number range began to have the distinctive small bulges on the lower cowling to accomodate the additional tubing required for the Daimler Benz 605 D engine. Although not fitted on these G-l4 AS machines, the 605 D was used in the G-10 and K series aircraft. <<

The K series was a 109 but it had a series all its own; it was not part of the G series 1 through 14 which introduced pressurized cockpits, more powerful engines, and heavier armor.
I hope this helps
Now...LET THE BEATINGS BEGIN!!!  

[ramzey]

[hogenbor]

Just wanted to start a thread on the 109...

There's a ton of stuff available about Spits, Mustangs and other allied birds, but so little on the 109. I have the usual zillion aviation books but they're not really detailed on the 109 and all the quoted data is the same.

I actually managed to find a German book called 'Testpilot auf Beuteflugzeugen' which loosely translates to 'Testpilot for captured airplanes'. It's however more a loosely organized war diary of a test pilot, than a really detailed book with test reports. A good read though, if you can read German (I can).

Is there any data, are there any German reports available (on-line?) where they compare their hardware with the allied stuff?
I'm interested in the advice they gave their pilots in combatting the Spitfire and the P-51.

[Batz]

Strider thats not arguement that was made

Our g10 is the "best possible g10"

The Messerschmitt Bf 109G-10 series was unusual in that it consisted of new and remanufactured airframes of earlier model G's equipped with the more powerful Daimler Benz DB 605D series engine. As a result, there was little standardization beyond the common use of the Erla-Haube (or "Galland Hood") improved vision canopy. The G-10 proved to be the fastest of the G models. The G10 could carry a 30mm MG 108 cannon firing through propeller hub or 1 20mm mg151 and two 13mm MG 131 machine guns

The g10 was there to fill the gap while they got the k4 up and running.

The ah charts put the top speed for our g10 at 452 same as the k4. In fact through testing our g10 falls a bit short of that mark.

No one said our g10 is a k4 but that is is similiar enough.

What wildeman was going on about is he still believes that the k4 had 2 x mg151/15mm in the cowl, which is complete bs and has been proven to be wrong with out question.

If the k4 could put 2 x mg151/15mm  why not just go for 2 x mg151/20mm? The mg151 could not fit the cowl the k4 was armed with a 30mm MG 108 cannon firing through propeller hub and two 13mm MG 131 machine guns in the cowl.

[wetrat]

I demand a 109-G14.

[joeblogs]

"Warplanes of the Third Reich."  It is the definitive volume on german aircraft.  

He has about 100 pages on the variants of the 109, it's deployment and competitveness at various stages of the war.  He has specificatios for every variant there was.  

Originally posted by hogenbor
Just wanted to start a thread on the 109...

There's a ton of stuff available about Spits, Mustangs and other allied birds, but so little on the 109. I have the usual zillion aviation books but they're not really detailed on the 109 and all the quoted data is the same.

I actually managed to find a German book called 'Testpilot auf Beuteflugzeugen' which loosely translates to 'Testpilot for captured airplanes'. It's however more a loosely organized war diary of a test pilot, than a really detailed book with test reports. A good read though, if you can read German (I can).

Is there any data, are there any German reports available (on-line?) where they compare their hardware with the allied stuff?
I'm interested in the advice they gave their pilots in combatting the Spitfire and the P-51.

[GRUNHERZ]

Our G10 is the closest possible G10 to the K4.  However it does not have some significant K4 streamlining features and better high speed handling of K4 in roll and pitch. The K4 also had the ability to rerout cooler liquid flow in case one radiator was punctured so it could fly on the other - this feature was extremly rare on the G models except maybe some early ones.

[J_A_B]

Doesn't our 109G-10 have the DB 605AS engine, not the DB 605D?   I thought an "D"-powered 109G-10 would have a top speed of around 426 MPH.

IIRC some K-4's were also built with the "D" (at least the engine builder claims this was the case) so the AH 109G-10 actually out-performs some wartime 109K's.  

Of course, as Grun noted, the 109K still had some detal changes to the airframe which would affect handling, especially with regards to high speed maneuverability.  

J_A_B

[Montezuma]

Originally posted by Don
There was a heated discussion over CH1 last night between Wildeman and several others regarding the 109. I couldn't help but overhear ....

...
Now...LET THE BEATINGS BEGIN!!!  
 

Count rivets in here all you like, but people who debate these things on channel 1 are the ones who need a beating.

[GRUNHERZ]

All K4 had one type or another of the DB605D, that was their standard engine and the most powerful of the DB605 series.

The DB605AS was a standard  DB605A with a larger supercharger unit from the big DB603. The AS was a stopgap until the more advanced and more powerful DB605D series became available.

So basically a DB605AS G10 would be slower than a DB605D G10.

And there were G10 with both the AS and D series motors.

[DB603]

S!


 The Radiator shut-off valve was installed on most Finnish AF Bf109G's. When using it pilot had to rely on 50% of the system so using low RPM and MAN was required to bring the plane home.

 I would like the Bf109K-4, it had better roll due to Flettner tabs in ailerons and revised elevator authority, also the rudder this tab that helped to deflect it in high speeds. The fuselage also was a bit different from G-series in structure. No plane in AH would outclimb it up to 7km(~21,000ft)

[Squire]

The 109K was a DB605D powered 109 that was manufactured "fresh", a 109G-10 was a (mainly) DB605D powered 109 produced from "refurbished" 109G-6s.

Thats the main difference. The whole idea was to get as many 109s produced with the DB605D engine at its core.

As far as areodynamic improvements the 109K had over the 109G-10, I cant think of anything significant. Externally they are almost identical, and only an expert could tell them apart without help. I sure cant tell em apart without aid. They both have the wooden tail, the more streamlined cowling, and the galland type hood.

[J_A_B]

Okay so I had 'em backwards--thanks for the correction  

Upon further research, I noted:

Mercedes claims that 109K's were built with both types of engines--DB 605 AS and DB 605 D.   Regardless of this though both used C3 fuel and MW50 for best performance and since power outputs were similar, I wouldn't expect there to be much of a performance difference between them.  Apparently the version of the DB 605AS put into some of the later 109K's (shortages of the D's) were uprated from the earlier AS series engines found in some G-6's and most G-10's.  

Learning something new every day  



J_A_B

[Wmaker]

Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Our G10 is the closest possible G10 to the K4.  However it does not have some significant K4 streamlining features and...

Significant is of course pretty subjective but only things that had any real effect on decreasing drag were: recractable tail wheel, deleted antenna mast (all G-10s didn't have it either) and small wheel cover doors in the main landing gear (which were usually deleted in the front).

http://www.jiop.fi/ksimuseo/Bf109G10left_65.gif

http://www.jiop.fi/ksimuseo/Bf109G10right_67.gif

http://www.jiop.fi/ksimuseo/Bf109K4right_82.gif

Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
All K4 had one type or another of the DB605D, that was their standard engine and the most powerful of the DB605 series.

There were few early prodution series exceptions with AS-engines.

[hazed-]

Originally posted by joeblogs
"Warplanes of the Third Reich."  It is the definitive volume on german aircraft.  

He has about 100 pages on the variants of the 109, it's deployment and competitveness at various stages of the war.  He has specificatios for every variant there was.

thanks for the tip off I just found it second hand for £22 which is abargain i thought. should get it in a couple of working days.

IT BETTER BE GOOD! hehe


oh btw i think i read somewhere that the K4 had several aero dynamic improvements which amounted to a few mph top speed. I cant for the life of me find the book but from memory it was the tail wheel retractable and special flush rivoting and polished surfaces (apparently the special polished finish added 1 or 2 mph i think! amazing really) I try my best to find the source so i can post it.oh and wasnt there many K's? all the way up to the last 109 the K-14. surely these were all small improvements made else why bother making anything but a K-1?

ok found another reference 'the complete book of WW2 aircraft' wheelstar publishing (its damn huge and wighs a tonne lol

'109k4

The first pre-series K-0 appeared in september 1944, and compared to the model from which it was derived, it differs in a series of aerodynamic and structural modifications.These included the altered shape of the engine housing, a longer spinner, a larger rudder-tail fin unit, and a "Galland" type canopy inthe cockpit, which allowed the pilot a greater field of vision.In these pre-production aircraft, the 30mm cannon installed in the propeller axis was eliminated and replaced by a pair of 15mm caliber MG 151 type weapons in the fuselage.As for the engines, although a Daimler Benz 605D was going to be installed , the more powerful DB 605 ASCM was later adopted for the production series aircraft.This engine was capable of generating 2,000 hp at takeoff and 1,800 hp at an altitude of 16,450 ft (5000m).
 Two months later, in November 1944, the assembly lines began to complete the first production series aircraft, the K-2 and K-4 (which differed from each other in that the latter was provided with a pressure system) and these aircraft went into service during the first few days of 1945. However, it was not long before operative needs made it necessary to strengthen the offensive armament.Therefore, in the final production varient the 30mm cannon was reinstalled in the propeller axis.Even heavier armament was installed in the subsequent K-6 series, which was built for the role of bomber pursuit.In addition to the cannon in the nose, two similar weapons were installed in pods below the wings, while the 15mm MG 151 cannons in the fuselage were replaced by two 13mm MG 131 caliber machine guns.These aircraft were delivered to the units of the luftwaffe beginning in january 1945, although only a few of them were used before the fall of the Third Reich.
  The final sub-series was the K-14, deliveries of which began in the last two weeks of the war.These bf109s, rendered more powerful by the DB605L engine fitted with mechanical two-stage compressor and capable of generating 1,700 hp at take-off and 1,350 hp at31,250 ft (9,500m), proved to possess an outstanding performance at extremely high altitude.With a maximum speed of 451mph (727km/h) at no less than 37,500 ft (11,400m).This was the same speed reached by the 109 K-4 at 19,736 ft (6000m).As for the armament, this consisted of a 30mm caliber cannon in the nose and two 13mm MG 131 machine guns in the fuselage.However only a very few K-14s managed to go into combat before Germany surrendered.

Aircraft:Messerschmitt Bf.109 K-4
Nation:germany
type:Fighter
year:1945
Engine: DB 605 ASCM, 12 cylinder,liquid cooled,2000 hp
wingspan:32ft 9in (9.97m)
Length: 29ft (8.84m)
Height: 8ft 2in (2.49m)
Weight: 7,448 lb (3,374kg)
Max speed: 451 mph (727km/h) at 19,736 ft (6,000m)
Ceiling: 41,118 ft (12,000m)
Range: 355miles (573 km)
Armament: 1x30mm cannon; 2x15mm cannons
Crew:1                                                                                                  
'

as you can see this book claims the 15mm mgs were present also which could mean they have got it wrong or are indeed right. The mention of 'altered shape of the engine housing' would suggest to me that maybe the larger 15mm were the reason. perhaps its time to ask tony williams how big the mg 151/15 was? perhaps it wasnt as big as the mg 151/20 at all.

Also the mention of the change to 2x15mm WITH removal of the 30mm and the later reversal to 1x30mm and 2x13mm(plus presumably optional 30mm gondalas) might be a significant point and maybe the source of confusion.

It seems its EITHER:

2xMG 151 15mm

OR

1x30mm and 2xMG 131 13mm


Batz why do you say its been proven when so many books who must certainly be better researchers than a few games players seem to think the 109 did have 2x15mm at some point? Can they all be wrong i wonder? what makes you 100% sure they didnt try it? and of course are you sure they didnt modify the gun barrels of the mg151/15mm or indeed as stated the engine housing to accomodate the larger 15mm guns? I think its a bold statement to say its been proved beyond doubt and to be honest i dont see what is wrong with thinking it might have been produced considering the many sources who claim they did indeed fit them.