Author Topic: US dirty tricks to win vote on Iraq war  (Read 3707 times)

Offline blitz

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US dirty tricks to win vote on Iraq war
« Reply #135 on: March 08, 2003, 08:12:32 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
The point is the post-WW2 US Foreign Policy was shaped by men who actually fought WW2. Who DID come ashore at Omaha Beach, if you will.

So it is not suprising in the least that they would not want their sons to have to do what they did.

This idea apparently causes you to roll on the floor laughing. I'm thinking you don't have a son yet...........

As for Nazi's, I'm sure you do hate them. I'm not accusing you of being one or sympathising with them.

The point is, had you been between 14 and 75 and alive back in those times, you and I both know what army you'd have been in.

And clearly, that's a different perspective.

I seriously doubt there were many German soldiers that marched down the Champs Elysee thinking they were liberating the French people. I'm fairly certain, on the other hand that Allied troops of all nations were thinking that very thing when they marched through Paris.



Where i disagree is not about american soldiers givin their lives to help gettin rid of Adolf and his crew. to them!

But there's some more than fightin for freedom and democracy if ya look at the policy of a big country.

It's called self-interest and includes economical benefit bigtime.

Was so in old WW2 times and is still true in Iraq.



Regards Blitz




America is threatened by Iraq in no way, it's just plain

Offline Toad

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US dirty tricks to win vote on Iraq war
« Reply #136 on: March 08, 2003, 10:34:46 AM »
I believe you overlook the events that shaped the lives of the men who created and executed our foreign policy after WW2.

That's what you miss in what I've said; perhaps I haven't expressed it well.

I think we did what we did PRIMARILY to prevent another war in Europe. And the men who ran that foreign had JUST been in a war in Europe........ and their father's had done the same before them. Time to do SOMETHING to make sure their sons (my generation) did not have to fight yet ANOTHER war in Europe. And we didn't. It was costly to us in many ways, but not in the loss of hundreds of thousands of American boys' lives ONCE AGAIN.

Now, you call that "self interest" as if it is something dirty.

Fine with me. I call it "smart" as if it is something really intelligent to be proud of.

We see on this BBS many of the "Europe is/was tired of war after WWI and WW2" posts that are used as a defence of "Europe's" unwillingness to do unpleasant things that are right.

Does it ever cross your mind that the US is/was REAL TIRED of fighting in European wars?


Guess not.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Tumor

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Re: US dirty tricks to win vote on Iraq war
« Reply #137 on: March 08, 2003, 07:18:34 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by takeda
"The United States is conducting a secret 'dirty tricks' campaign against UN Security Council delegations in New York as part of its battle to win votes in favour of war against Iraq.
Details of the aggressive surveillance operation, which involves interception of the home and office telephones and the emails of UN delegates in New York, are revealed in a document leaked to The Observer.
"
....

"The leaked memorandum makes clear that the target of the heightened surveillance efforts are the delegations from Angola, Cameroon, Chile, Mexico, Guinea and Pakistan at the UN headquarters in New York - the so-called 'Middle Six' delegations whose votes are being fought over by the pro-war party, led by the US and Britain, and the party arguing for more time for UN inspections, led by France, China and Russia."

http://www.observer.co.uk/iraq/story/0,12239,905936,00.html
:rolleyes:


.......and??  lol
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Offline Tumor

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Re: US dirty tricks to win vote on Iraq war
« Reply #138 on: March 08, 2003, 07:18:36 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by takeda
"The United States is conducting a secret 'dirty tricks' campaign against UN Security Council delegations in New York as part of its battle to win votes in favour of war against Iraq.
Details of the aggressive surveillance operation, which involves interception of the home and office telephones and the emails of UN delegates in New York, are revealed in a document leaked to The Observer.
"
....

"The leaked memorandum makes clear that the target of the heightened surveillance efforts are the delegations from Angola, Cameroon, Chile, Mexico, Guinea and Pakistan at the UN headquarters in New York - the so-called 'Middle Six' delegations whose votes are being fought over by the pro-war party, led by the US and Britain, and the party arguing for more time for UN inspections, led by France, China and Russia."

http://www.observer.co.uk/iraq/story/0,12239,905936,00.html
:rolleyes:


.......and??  lol
"Dogfighting is useless"  :Erich Hartmann

Offline blitz

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US dirty tricks to win vote on Iraq war
« Reply #139 on: March 09, 2003, 08:22:25 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
I believe you overlook the events that shaped the lives of the men who created and executed our foreign policy after WW2.

That's what you miss in what I've said; perhaps I haven't expressed it well.

I think we did what we did PRIMARILY to prevent another war in Europe. And the men who ran that foreign had JUST been in a war in Europe........ and their father's had done the same before them. Time to do SOMETHING to make sure their sons (my generation) did not have to fight yet ANOTHER war in Europe. And we didn't. It was costly to us in many ways, but not in the loss of hundreds of thousands of American boys' lives ONCE AGAIN.

Now, you call that "self interest" as if it is something dirty.

Fine with me. I call it "smart" as if it is something really intelligent to be proud of.

We see on this BBS many of the "Europe is/was tired of war after WWI and WW2" posts that are used as a defence of "Europe's" unwillingness to do unpleasant things that are right.

Does it ever cross your mind that the US is/was REAL TIRED of fighting in European wars?


Guess not.




Toad , your'e right. American former government were at least a tad more smart than Bush & his warmongers to make people believe foreign policy is all about freedom and democrazy and saving lives. Was not the whole truth.

Was also huge economical interests ( wonder why you deny to admit that, the one and only value is MOOOOOOOOOOOney), to capture or to defend.



Regards Blitz


America is threatened by Iraq in no way, it's just plain ridiculous
« Last Edit: March 09, 2003, 09:36:05 AM by blitz »

Offline Toad

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US dirty tricks to win vote on Iraq war
« Reply #140 on: March 09, 2003, 08:29:31 AM »
Bush & Co may look real smart after the world sees what weaponry turns up in Iraq.

Undoubtedly, though, you have much better Intel than they do. I'm sure you got thoroughly briefed on Iraqi capabilities at the rally, right?

You believe what you want to believe about US motives. No one is going to change your mind.

Face it.... you guys have the worst track record in the history of the world for mass destruction and slaughter. You don't play well with each other.

The idea that all that hate changed into a penchant for floral arranging was recently disproven in the Balkans... you know, the cradle of WW1?

You sure aren't going to change my mind. Those folks you talk about are my parents and their generation. I KNOW what they thought.

And they thought it was worth ANY price to keep their sons from dying in yet ANOTHER European war.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Toad

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US dirty tricks to win vote on Iraq war
« Reply #141 on: March 09, 2003, 08:32:03 AM »
Come to think of it, you folks at the rally didn't talk about Iraq and it's weaponry or the torture, slaughter and genocide Iraq sponsors at all, did you?


No, you didn't.


:D
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline blitz

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US dirty tricks to win vote on Iraq war
« Reply #142 on: March 09, 2003, 09:32:01 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad

You sure aren't going to change my mind. Those folks you talk about are my parents and their generation. I KNOW what they thought.


I don't want to change your mind. I just hate propaganda , that's all.

Quote

And they thought it was worth ANY price to keep their sons from dying in yet ANOTHER European war. [/B]


Nothin to say against that.
But again, it's not the whole story. The other part is more commonplace-> Money makes my world go round.


Regards Blitz


America is threatened by Iraq in no way, it's just plain rediculous

Offline blitz

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US dirty tricks to win vote on Iraq war
« Reply #143 on: March 09, 2003, 09:35:14 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
Come to think of it, you folks at the rally didn't talk about Iraq and it's weaponry or the torture, slaughter and genocide Iraq sponsors at all, did you?


No, you didn't.


:D



That's pretty lame Toad. What can we say more as Bush and his crew already invented a new Hitler. No way to top that :D


Regards Blitz


America is threatened by Iraq in no way, it's just plain

Offline Toad

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US dirty tricks to win vote on Iraq war
« Reply #144 on: March 09, 2003, 10:02:39 AM »
Really?

September 22, 1980 Iraq attacks Iran.

February 23--March 19, 1988 First Anfal--The Siege of Sergalou
and Bergalou, the beginning of a genocidal offensive that eventually killed or "disappeared" 100,000 ~ 180,000 Iraqi Kurds, depending upon who you believe.

August, 1990, Iraq invades Kuwait.

Saddam presides over the all-powerful Revolutionary Command Council, which enacts laws and decrees and overrides all other state institutions.

Several RCC decrees give the security agencies full powers to suppress dissent with impunity.

An RCC decree of 21 December 1992 guarantees immunity for Ba'ath party members who cause damage to property, bodily harm and even death when pursuing enemies of the regime.

Saddam has, through the RCC, issued a series of decrees establishing severe penalties (amputation, branding, cutting off of ears, or other forms of mutilation) for criminal offences.

In mid-2000, the RCC approved amputation of the tongue as a new penalty for slander or abusive remarks about the President or his family

These punishments are practised mainly on political dissenters. Iraqi TV has broadcast pictures of these punishments as a warning to others. (Gotta wonder how "protesters" like .... you..... would fair if you tried to speak against the government in Iraq, eh?)

The dossier says that BBC correspondent John Sweeney said he had met six witnesses with direct experience of child torture, including the crushing of a two-year-old girl's feet.

Prison conditions:

Conditions for political prisoners in Iraq are inhumane and degrading.

At the "Mahjar" prison "prisoners are beaten twice a day and the women regularly raped by their guards.

Under Saddam Huseein's regime women lack even the basic right to life. A 1990 decree allows male relatives to kill a female relative in the name of honour without punishment.

Women have been tortured, ill-treated and in some cases summarily executed too, according to Amnesty International.

Arbitrary and summary killings:

Executions are carried out without due process of law. relatives are often prevented from burying the victims in accordance with Islamic practice and have even been charged for the bullets used.

Persecution of the Kurds:

Under Saddam's rule Iraq's Kurdish communities have experienced terrible suffering.

Documents captured by the Kurds during the Gulf War and handed over to the non-governmental oprganisation Human Rights Watch provided much information about Saddam's persecution of the Kurds. They detail the arrest and execution in 1983 of 8,000 Kurdish males aged 13 and upwards.

Methods of torture:

Eye gouging

Piercing of hands with electric drill

Suspended from ceiling by their wrists

Electric shock

Sexual abuse

Mock executions

Acid baths

It is no wonder that, according to the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees in 2001, Iraqis have become the second largest group of refugees in the world.

Iraqis also top the table of foreign nationals seeking asylum in the UK.


************

No way to top that? (source is BBC, btw)

More than anything, I feel pity for you.

Apparently, you are unable to distinguish between people that DO this sort of thing from people that wish to STOP THEM from doing this sort of thing.

What a topsy-turvy world you must inhabit.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2003, 10:23:44 AM by Toad »
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline blitz

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US dirty tricks to win vote on Iraq war
« Reply #145 on: March 09, 2003, 03:37:40 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
Really?

September 22, 1980 Iraq attacks Iran.

February 23--March 19, 1988 First Anfal--The Siege of Sergalou
and Bergalou, the beginning of a genocidal offensive that eventually killed or "disappeared" 100,000 ~ 180,000 Iraqi Kurds, depending upon who you believe.

August, 1990, Iraq invades Kuwait.

Saddam presides over the all-powerful Revolutionary Command Council, which enacts laws and decrees and overrides all other state institutions.

Several RCC decrees give the security agencies full powers to suppress dissent with impunity.

An RCC decree of 21 December 1992 guarantees immunity for Ba'ath party members who cause damage to property, bodily harm and even death when pursuing enemies of the regime.

Saddam has, through the RCC, issued a series of decrees establishing severe penalties (amputation, branding, cutting off of ears, or other forms of mutilation) for criminal offences.

In mid-2000, the RCC approved amputation of the tongue as a new penalty for slander or abusive remarks about the President or his family

These punishments are practised mainly on political dissenters. Iraqi TV has broadcast pictures of these punishments as a warning to others. (Gotta wonder how "protesters" like .... you..... would fair if you tried to speak against the government in Iraq, eh?)

The dossier says that BBC correspondent John Sweeney said he had met six witnesses with direct experience of child torture, including the crushing of a two-year-old girl's feet.

Prison conditions:

Conditions for political prisoners in Iraq are inhumane and degrading.

At the "Mahjar" prison "prisoners are beaten twice a day and the women regularly raped by their guards.

Under Saddam Huseein's regime women lack even the basic right to life. A 1990 decree allows male relatives to kill a female relative in the name of honour without punishment.

Women have been tortured, ill-treated and in some cases summarily executed too, according to Amnesty International.

Arbitrary and summary killings:

Executions are carried out without due process of law. relatives are often prevented from burying the victims in accordance with Islamic practice and have even been charged for the bullets used.

Persecution of the Kurds:

Under Saddam's rule Iraq's Kurdish communities have experienced terrible suffering.

Documents captured by the Kurds during the Gulf War and handed over to the non-governmental oprganisation Human Rights Watch provided much information about Saddam's persecution of the Kurds. They detail the arrest and execution in 1983 of 8,000 Kurdish males aged 13 and upwards.

Methods of torture:

Eye gouging

Piercing of hands with electric drill

Suspended from ceiling by their wrists

Electric shock

Sexual abuse

Mock executions

Acid baths

It is no wonder that, according to the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees in 2001, Iraqis have become the second largest group of refugees in the world.

Iraqis also top the table of foreign nationals seeking asylum in the UK.


************

No way to top that? (source is BBC, btw)

More than anything, I feel pity for you.

Apparently, you are unable to distinguish between people that DO this sort of thing from people that wish to STOP THEM from doing this sort of thing.

What a topsy-turvy world you must inhabit.




Stop that whining. You are willing  to sacrifice as many iraq people as it needs to. Go deal with your allies first and stop them torture people  than i'll cue in asap and please ask your presi Bush  to also use human rights for people who are accused to be Al Queida members and stop torture them too.
Bush gives a dead rats prettythang about the people of Iraq.


Regards Blitz



America is threatened by Iraq in no way, it's just plain rediculous
« Last Edit: March 10, 2003, 03:15:14 PM by blitz »

Offline Tumor

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US dirty tricks to win vote on Iraq war
« Reply #146 on: March 09, 2003, 03:59:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by blitz
Stop that whining. You are willing  to sacrifice as many iraq people as it needs to. Go deal with your allies first and stop them torture people  than i'll cue in asap and please ask your presi Bush  to also use human rights for people who are accused to be Al Queida members and stop torture them too.
Bush gives a dead rats prettythang about the people of Iraq.


Regards Blitz



America is threatened by Iraq in no way, it's just plain rediculous


LOL, your kidding right?
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Offline blitz

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US dirty tricks to win vote on Iraq war
« Reply #147 on: March 09, 2003, 04:03:41 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Tumor
LOL, your kidding right?



Sure, or do you really believe that will happen :D


Regards Blitz



btw If we use the same methods as them we aren't any better.



America is threatened by Iraq in no way, it's just plain

Offline Hajo

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US dirty tricks to win vote on Iraq war
« Reply #148 on: March 09, 2003, 04:29:29 PM »
The squabble in the UN Security Council is not about war.  Resolution 1441 clearly states what the UN has mandated.

The squabble is purely political.  France and Germany have become mid level powers.  They do not like that position. They do not like the US and UKs influence on world politics.  So they've formed a political alliance to increase their political power.  Unfortunately with nothing to back political diplomacy......such as France and Germany, diplomacy becomes merely words.  

We've learned from past history that diplomacy, such as giving Germany the Sudatenland rarely works when involved with a dictatorship.  Dictators do not use Diplomacy, nor do they regard it as important.  Dictators see one thing.....their personal gain.

As the UKs Ambassador to the UN Security Council so eloquently answered his French Counterpart

" I beg to differ that 12 years of diplomacy has suddenly urged Saddam Hussein to start destroying Weapons.  On the other hand I believe it's the 200,000 troops from the UK and US that have arrived within the last year.

I tend to agree...........unfortunately words fail at times.  And also unfortunately action has to be taken.......Diplomacy without something to back it....alas is entirely useless.

Also.......you think after the war France and Germany want the UK and US to display records that show them supplying Iraq with banned equipment?

I think not.  Washington Times   article two days  ago stated that France was selling military parts for aircraft to a dummy Corp. then shipping them to Iraq. One would think that the Govt. of France would look closely at any exported military spare parts.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2003, 05:05:24 PM by Hajo »
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Offline straffo

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US dirty tricks to win vote on Iraq war
« Reply #149 on: March 09, 2003, 04:42:59 PM »
It was Washington time not the post.

http://www.washtimes.com/national/20030307-545570.htm

Repeat a lie 10 time and it became true.