Author Topic: US dirty tricks to win vote on Iraq war  (Read 4384 times)

Offline AKIron

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US dirty tricks to win vote on Iraq war
« Reply #90 on: March 05, 2003, 10:07:53 AM »
Ping, I'm still not clear on your point about Germany being a buffer zone. You haven't refuted the claim that you used the term to dismiss any altruism the US may have had by stationing large number of troops there.

You also haven't commented concerning Toad's question regarding the DMZ in Korea, or if ya did I missed it. BTW, using your logic, all of South Korea would be the buffer zone or just a forward base against the expansion of communism from China. If you believe this then I will agree, but probably not for the same reason. I see communism as a threat to the prosperity of individuality and freedom. If we help a few real people in the process of pursuing our ideal, so much the better. A little attempt at irony there in case it doesn't come across clearly.
Here we put salt on Margaritas, not sidewalks.

Offline Toad

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US dirty tricks to win vote on Iraq war
« Reply #91 on: March 05, 2003, 10:13:46 AM »
Quote
It was not concern for Germany itself, it was about control and Dominance in Europe.
You cant argue with that.


I can easily argue that the "control" we sought, if any, was to control the Euro's penchant for starting World Wars that killed millions.

I can easily argue that the "dominance" we sought in Europe, if any, was to "dominate" any country with a tendency towards conquest merely by our presence on the other side of the line and make staying within their borders their only viable option.

Your implication that we somehow wanted to turn Europe into a huge American colony is ludicrous.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Eaglecz

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US dirty tricks to win vote on Iraq war
« Reply #92 on: March 05, 2003, 11:02:14 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by X2Lee
Its not often that I read a post and feel utter contept for a human being. But you did the trick orel.
Hell I woulnt even give you a check six now...


lol :D

Offline Eaglecz

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Re: OREL
« Reply #93 on: March 05, 2003, 11:04:13 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
Haven't heard of any alliance between the US and Czech Republic in 1939. Can you give me a link or some more information? Thx!


ofcourse give me time to find some information about that metter in english

Offline Eaglecz

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US dirty tricks to win vote on Iraq war
« Reply #94 on: March 05, 2003, 11:06:59 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by X2Lee
Btw 75% of Americans want saddam brought to justice.


sure bring him to justice and stop bombing all around
i totaly agree
but i do not belive that you need 300 000 soldiers to remove 1 idiot

Offline Toad

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US dirty tricks to win vote on Iraq war
« Reply #95 on: March 05, 2003, 11:15:58 AM »
If you can just provide the name and/or date of the treaty or alliance I can probably research it.

Thanks!
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Eaglecz

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US dirty tricks to win vote on Iraq war
« Reply #96 on: March 05, 2003, 11:32:40 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Steve
Orel my original post is full of facts, what the hell are you talking about? You shouldn't support us because we supported you and it was 40 years ago? And what should we owe you?  for what?  WWI? thanks.  WWII?  Thanks

As for needing your support... we don't .. just don't get in the way ok?  Just keep your cowardly, ungratefull tulips on the sidlines.... again

 


lol

in 1945 few americanos came to czech, plzen
then they got order to turn back, because US and Russian have deal, who will have influent where. thats not secret.

its not about supporting.... im just whinning, because all americans want support support support and they aren able to explain whats going on....
bring some facts

and stop whinning about terrorist, or i will laugh till morning
do you already know, what was official purpose to build organization like alqaida ? and if you realy belive that their point is to terrorize small ham eaters, you should ma be check few more resources


so im asking again... in what do you want support ?
from historical point of view, you do not deserve any support

there is only 1 country whitch did use weapons of mass destruction on enemy civilians behind their owen frontier

and 1 whitch did use chemical weapons in their owen country agains enermy army


so my dear... if i will lookk at your history, you current arguments (mostly argument less propaganda) im not about to support you w/o proper communication and explanation

and if is your attitude "fak off small children we have guns" thats may be reason not only to dont support you

but as usualy .... your official  attitude is pure "arogance"

i do not see any reason why should germany support another massacre... from historical point of view ? no they realy do not owe you

btw did you note that post war germany was a bit diferent country that current germany ??

Offline SLO

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US dirty tricks to win vote on Iraq war
« Reply #97 on: March 05, 2003, 12:17:54 PM »
why did the allies let the russians in germany anyways......:D


revenge....is what I hear....

whatta mistake that was.....

but now Germans and Russians are friends....please lets not forget that.....

AKIron you said you'd never come to Canada or go to France......

Canada is one of the most beautiful countries in the world....people are civilized and good natured...always a hello on the horizon or a have a good day eh:D

We have NO nukes....no permit to carry weapons...so you can visit without worrying if ya gonna get shot:eek:

If ya wanna impress a chick....FRANCE is where to go....la ville de l'amour...PARIS.

please don't let a political debate make you form ideas about a countries people.....not every govr truthfully reflects its peoples ideas....

If ya ever do choose to visit Canada...promise you'll like your trip....plus your money is worth more so you'll get more for the buck:D

Offline AKIron

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US dirty tricks to win vote on Iraq war
« Reply #98 on: March 05, 2003, 12:26:36 PM »
Slo, I believe I said I'd probably never go. I don't plan to at present. I've seen quite a bit of the world, no desire to travel anymore.
Here we put salt on Margaritas, not sidewalks.

Offline Pepe

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US dirty tricks to win vote on Iraq war
« Reply #99 on: March 05, 2003, 12:27:52 PM »
I didn't post my oppinion on this subject yet. It's my first post about it. But I want to state one thing crystal clear. In this Iraqui issue, I step, undoubtfully, with the USA. They are making their best efforts to comply with UN and international sensibilities and, remember, it's not your head but theirs which have the Islamic terrorists guns directly pointed at. And this makes a world of differences. We know it very well in my country.

You might use checking your history books. At the times where Germany was overunning Sudentenland America was, if anything, isolationist, except for a minority. It were only UK & France who actively gave Sudetenland away (and Alsacia-Lorena, and Danzig, and...). By that time, that was a European conflict. Probably if America were more "proactive" history would be different. Who knows.

But this comes handy on the Saddam & Irak issue. What strikes me most (and it's only my opinion) is the similarity between Germany post depression situation and Irak post war situation. Germans had a raving lunatic in a pretty much destroyed and humiliated country after WWI and '29 depression who managed to bring his country from his knees to a second-line military power. This raving (mind it, not stupid) guy was able to use his skills to molder the public oppinion and make it fit his own agenda, using the external aggression and the racial argument. And there was a fertile field to receive that seed.

Now, you have Iraq. A pretty much destroyed and humiliated country after he lost 2 wars in a row. But he managed to stay in power and he the willing to make any kind of weapon although he still has not the money. It shocks me why so many people fails to see the ultimate objective of Saddam is becoming a regional power in a first stance, but this only as a partial goal. He did it when he attacked Iran. He did it when he invaded Kuwait. He used his pro-western attitude when it was useful for his goal, and now he is turning a first-line muslim believer. Both blatant lies. Trying to glue his people against the common external enemy.

I can agree with blitz saying that Iraq is no threat to U.S. but only from a short sighted perspective. If you leave a raving lunatic in charge of such huge amount of money, you are only capitalizing future failure. And that's where oil comes to play. It's not only about America's economic power, it's not only about protecting U.S. interests. It's also about "not letting this happen, in the first place" better than facing awful chances if you fail to deprive a lunatic dictator the means to achieve his ultimate goal of being the ultimate regional power in the area.

Are you implying that we (and I am not american) should take the risks? For the sake of what?....I fail to see why.

I feel sorry for the civilian casualties if war ever starts. I don't like war, and I think war itself is the sum of all fears. But hiding the head in the sand won't make war not happen. Tell Chamberlain who, incidentally, was received like a hero in London after we was cheated miserably. Like all english who honestly believed in Hitler's promises. Are you saying we should believe Saddam's ones? Why is Saddam less dangerous than Adolf H.?

Last, but not least, if we are talking abot sheer power, well...there is one single world power nowadays (only China could rival this and nobody can guess when). No matter how loud France, Germany or even Russia can shout, they are still the chihuahuas in front of the pitbull. Whatever they bark, the result will be the same. We are allies (and I'm happy myself to be that) of the one superpower. We are not his equals or similars. Face it, guys. Germany, or France, or both, or the whole EU would not stand the first round of an economic war against US. Let alone a military one.

And don't bring the "honour" or the "hipocricy" or the "interests" flags around. Everyone here follows his own agenda, and France is paramount. They are only playing his cards to protect their national interests (Elf Aquitaine comes to mind). They are appearing as if they are defending the weak (Iraq) against the powerful (USA) but they will step with America once the war begins. Mark my words. In the very moment they perceive they have a losing hand, they will run for their share of the winning pie. French diplomacy is absolutely brilliant and excels over time.  Arguably the most efficient in the world since Louis XIV. But that's it. (sorry, Straffo, that's how I see French stance at the time being :().

Of course, this is my just barely educated opinion.

Offline blitz

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US dirty tricks to win vote on Iraq war
« Reply #100 on: March 05, 2003, 03:42:26 PM »
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Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
Awwwwwwwwwww roadkill.

Germany was no buffer zone, as Russia and the US had signed the MAD pact.

Mutual Assured Destruction, once one nuke went off, they all went off.

You can't very well have a buffer zone when there's nukes hitting every part of every major continent within minutes of each other.
-SW


Ever heard of 'Flexible Response ' Doctrin ?



Regards Blitz



America is threatened by Iraq in no way, it's just plain ridiculous

Offline AKS\/\/ulfe

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US dirty tricks to win vote on Iraq war
« Reply #101 on: March 05, 2003, 03:55:35 PM »
Yes I have Blitz, and it allows the President to either respond to Soviet attacks in kind, or to escalate it.

A nuclear strike would of been "eye for an eye", and Germany was by no means the numero uno target for a nuclear strike. It also didn't come about until 1961, the Cold War was well under way by this time.
-SW

Offline blitz

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US dirty tricks to win vote on Iraq war
« Reply #102 on: March 05, 2003, 03:56:57 PM »
 :)
« Last Edit: March 05, 2003, 03:59:23 PM by blitz »

Offline blitz

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US dirty tricks to win vote on Iraq war
« Reply #103 on: March 05, 2003, 03:57:45 PM »
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Originally posted by Toad
I can easily argue that the "control" we sought, if any, was to control the Euro's penchant for starting World Wars that killed millions.

I can easily argue that the "dominance" we sought in Europe, if any, was to "dominate" any country with a tendency towards conquest merely by our presence on the other side of the line and make staying within their borders their only viable option.

Your implication that we somehow wanted to turn Europe into a huge American colony is ludicrous.




I honestly don't think America just wanted to save Germany or Europe from being slaves of the russians.


Europe was a place of 200 millions customers for USA goods.

Nothin bad with it but don't tell me about altruistc reasons in the first place.


Regards Blitz


America is threatened by Iraq in no way, it's just plain ridiculous
« Last Edit: March 05, 2003, 04:02:12 PM by blitz »

Offline Eaglecz

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Re: OREL
« Reply #104 on: March 05, 2003, 04:16:55 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
Haven't heard of any alliance between the US and Czech Republic in 1939. Can you give me a link or some more information? Thx!


so Toad you catch my balls i messed up " Group of four" , "Treaty of Versailles", "Wilsons idea about United nations"

Proper alaince was France, russian, UK... UK, Russian promised help and so on

I messed up Group of four (Britain, France, U.S.A., Italy)

The thing america did bring&refuse after WWI was "Wilsons idea about United nations"
so they didnt break aliance, they just did bring idea to build aliance, but it was refused by american goverment
So there was only above meantioned aliance

some stuff around that.:
http://web.jjay.cuny.edu/~jobrien/reference/ob18.html
http://web.jjay.cuny.edu/~jobrien/reference/ob93.html
http://www1.osu.cz/home/macha/predmety/mp/dejinymv.htm(didnt find anything like this in english )