Balance Inquiry

[aknimitz]

S! Everyone,

I just want to inquire briefly as to the planesets involved in this TOD. I know it is terribly difficult to strike a good balance in these events. I was on the CM team briefly, and I can account first hand the difficulty that is involved in planning. However, I know that balance is crucial. Without balance, TOD will not survive. No one likes to have the outcome decided before the event even starts (for all practical purposes).

I know that my particular squad was alotted G10s and 190A8s (any combination) along with 1 Me262 for recon.

I know that my particular squad ran into 10+ Tempests at approximately 30K ... and that another LW squad ran into approximately 10+ Tempests as well. That accounts for 20+ Tempests, and the only counter we (LW) have to use is 190A8s and 109G10s?

Was this a mistake providing allied squads with unlimited use of Tempests, or planned to allow two full squads use of Tempests? Given that my squad was restricted to 1 Me262, I suspect perhaps some of the allieds might have been restricted iN Tempest use?

Or did the LW have a full couple of 262 squads?

Thanks for any insight.

S!
Nim
CO, Arabian Knights

[Machine]

Originally posted by aknimitz


I know that my particular squad was alotted G10s and 190A8s (any combination) along with 1 Me262 for recon.

I know that my particular squad ran into 10+ Tempests at approximately 30K ... and that another LW squad ran into approximately 10+ Tempests as well. That accounts for 20+ Tempests, and the only counter we (LW) have to use is 190A8s and 109G10s?

Nim
CO, Arabian Knights

First to you!  But, what's a few Tempest's against all those 109 G-10's.  That plane rocks!  Not to mention those 190's!  They are flying gun ships!

I didn't fly any Tempests nor did my squad, we were just the lowly bomber guys!

[Shamus]

While I will admit that the g10 is a real nice ride, the Tempest is the brute of the arena and will out perform and out gun both the LW rides.

shamus

[aknimitz]

Gunships? You honestly think the 190A8 is even arguably competitive against the tempest? Well, its not

The 109G10 is more competitive, and at 30K might even hold an edge, but what are we supposed to be doing at 30K? We had defense of bridges, likely jabo - definitely would not be coming in at 30K.

I just think it is terribly unbalanced. I understand a squad of 'em, especially if we have a squad of 262s. I do not understand 20+ of them. That is not competitive, and when peopl take time out of their Friday night and have no chance of a surviving a successful mission.

Nim

[Machine]

Originally posted by aknimitz
That is not competitive, and when peopl take time out of their Friday night and have no chance of a surviving a successful mission.

Nim

How about that?  I remember a time when I flew in TOD and in fact I flew with the AK's, it seemed like we always had the worst planes possible for the Frame!  The answer I got was " We are good and don't have to rely on GOOD Planes to win".  I do remember hearing this!

Oh well, water under the bridge.  <> to you again and it was really fun in there.  At least this time it was!  

[daddog]

Hi Nim!

Sorry you guys had a rough time of it last night. The Mongrels did not fair any better. We were all slotted in P-47’s to take out a truck convoy. We were jumped by 262’s, 190’s and G10’s. The fight did not last long.

You know as well as anyone the out come of these frames is often dependent on the orders of the Frame C.O. The LW had 12 262’s at their disposal. They could have been together or separate. I also always ask Frame C.O.'s to represent all the AC so they just don't up in uber ride. You might run into a larger squad or a much smaller one. Just no telling.   I also replied to you explaining the plane set here.
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=81089

[AKcurly]

The G10 is more than a match for the tempest at 20+k - no doubt about that.   However, when you force a flight to field 190A8s to guard against JABOs, ultimately the G10s will be forced into down & dirty fights.

I know of no quicker way to kill interest in "Tour of Duty" than to create mismatches like this.  If I didn't know better, I would think the effort was deliberate, but I don't believe for a second that Daddog would do that.  

I will fight any plane in a 190a5 or d9.  But an A8 is fairly limited and when it faces a flight of mossies along with 10-12 tempests, it's not even a fight *IF* any effort is to be made concerning execution of orders.

So, just for the record Daddog, what is the rationale for matching A8s against tempests/mossies down low?

curly

[icemaw]

I could have alotted more 262's for this frame but we only had 12 for the whole camp so I only sent up 4.  I am kinda suprised allies had that many temp's avalible. Over all I think the axis faired pretty well the Nightmares flattened the factory they went after. =S= nightmares.

[Machine]

I agree Ice, you guys did well, in the frame.  I checked the scores and I see your side did very well indeed.  I think that the axis won it.  In fact, I will never loose interest in TOD, as I realize that it is just part of the game!  You can always count me and my squad in!

[daddog]

Allied
Kills - 64
Assists - 30
Objects destroyed - 91
Deaths - 53

Axis
Kills - 53
Assists - 26
Objects destroyed - 144
Deaths - 61

Differences
Deaths - 18% favor Allies
Assists - 14% favor Allies
Objects - 37 % favor Axis
Deaths - 15% favor Allies

I just peeked at the logs. They don’t register the P-38’s or the B-26’s for some reason, but for what it is worth the number of pilots who flew certain AC were:
Temp – 22
P-47 – 25
P-51 – 33
Mossie – 17

So, just for the record Daddog, what is the rationale for matching A8s against tempests/mossies down low?

Don’t have any. That is not what I am doing as you said. The AC used for both sides were:
P51D, P47D25, P38L, Spit XIV, Tempest V, Mosquito VI, B26 VS Fw190A8, Fw190F8, Me109G10, Me262.
Considering the most of the Allied missions require them to be heavy and lose what alt they have it evens out.

All in all I think the frame went well except for the furbar with the trains and truck convoys that were not running.

[aknimitz]

S! Daddog,

I have sent you an email expressing some additional concerns.

Machine, if I didnt know any better, I'd say you were trying to pick a fight? I do not mind having an inferior plane, as long as the inferior plane has a sporting chance. But 190A8s against Tempests is not a fighting chance - it is absolutely the most lopsided planeset one could possible imagine concerning fighter vs fighter. Its grossly faster, turns grossly better, climbs grossly better, dives better, accelerates better and has a better gun package.

The G10 on ther otherhand is a sporting chance plane - but I had to field 190A8s - CO orders.

S!
Nim

[AKcurly]

Originally posted by daddog
 Don’t have any. That is not what I am doing as you said. The AC used for both sides were:
P51D, P47D25, P38L, Spit XIV, Tempest V, Mosquito VI, B26 VS Fw190A8, Fw190F8, Me109G10, Me262.
Considering the most of the Allied missions require them to be heavy and lose what alt they have it evens out.

All in all I think the frame went well except for the furbar with the trains and truck convoys that were not running. [/B]

Daddog, I trust you.  I don't think you had any intention of creating something unbalanced.

However, Pitting A8s/F8s against ponies, jugs, p38s, spit9s tempests and even mossies isn't remotely "balanced."  That may well be what the LW had to field (in RL) ... dunno ...  But, personally, I'm not interested in historical reenactments if they sacrifice the fun element.

For a frame or two, I'm willing (for the betterment of "Squadron Ops") to pretend I'm a sushi vendor in Hiroshima back in August 1945.  That's about what flying A8s against the above group is like.  Next time, why not change all the A8/F8 skins so they have gigantic bulleyes on both wings?  It might be helpful for the allied planes.

And for the record, all tempests were light and came in around 30k.

curly

[Machine]

Originally posted by aknimitz
S! Daddog,

I have sent you an email expressing some additional concerns.

Machine, if I didnt know any better, I'd say you were trying to pick a fight?


S!
Nim

Oh boy!  Here we go!     Just because I post a message about what I think, you take it personal, like a little baby.  Even though I did you before I started.  Give it a break oh mighty one! Isn't whining about the plane thing bad enough without trying to make it personal thing...  gessshhhh...

[aknimitz]

Completely agree with curly's concern. I understand there is an historical element, but when that historical element prevents both sides from enjoying the event, I dunno how good of an idea it is. At least tell me beforehand that Im gonna get an ass-whipping and let me decide if I want to join

S!
Nim

PS
Holy cow Machine ... resorting to name calling? I didnt take anything personal. I stated an objective inquiry, and you respond with something completely unrelated (about how the AKs dont mind being outplaned because we are stronger pilots). What does that have to do with the subject of this post? And I know that in your mind an objective inquiry is whining ... but alas I digress.

[Squire]

There were 2 squads of Tempests in frame 1, out of 12 squads. They are an appropriate ac for the RAF in late 1944, and are no more unbalancing than the Ta152s we see in setups or the Me262, or the 109D-9s for that matter, not to mention unlimited 109G-10s in most setups I have seen.

Just my thoughts. They are not used in every setup, to see them in some is nice for the guys that like RAF ac? The world doesnt revolve around just LW and US planes.