Author Topic: America Admits Torture Deaths  (Read 4274 times)

Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #120 on: March 12, 2003, 03:12:07 AM »
Sure!   But I don't agree with your theory - you do.

Trying to "trap" me by saying both groups are equally "POW" you only validated my argument that the French did indeed kill POWs, which answers your question of "hu" did they kill.  

Now that you agree that French did indeed kill POWs after ww2 in their colonial wars you must apply YOUR theory, (unless of course you are full of toejam and you are lying to us), and conclude that indeed the French are Nazis.


So really you are the only person who got trapped.



You can untrap yourself, however, by admitting openly that your "do as nazi equal nazi" or "killing 2 pow is same as 6million holcaust is the same" theories are plainly idiotic.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2003, 03:14:27 AM by GRUNHERZ »

Offline straffo

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« Reply #121 on: March 12, 2003, 03:23:28 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hortlund



So now I'm confused straffo.
At first you are accusing me of being a nazi because I think there are situations where torture is motivated. You say "if you act like a Nazi ... you are a Nazi". Then you say that torture is acceptable in some circumstances. Does that mean that you are a nazi too? But when Hangtime says HE thinks torture is acceptable in some situations, he is NOT a nazi?

Above I have asked you to answer the question: If you lie, does that make you a nazi? You have dodged that question three times, so I dont expect an answer now either…


It's a bit more complex than you think.
You like anyone have a moral contract with yourself ,ok ?
At least I've one, I try to live the way I've choosen and avoid making bad things (bad thing in my moral system which is not obligatory yours).

When you asked me to give a personnal opinion about what I will do in a precise circumstance I've just a little effort of imagination to do to figure what would be my probable reaction.

I doesn't imply I'll avoid the consequence regarding my moral system I'll not try to avoid the truth and hide behind some "it was the right think to do" "I was having no other choises".

If ever I act like that I'll act like a Nazi and de facto I'll be a Nazi.

Concerning Hangtime look at the word I've used : "'ve trouble distiguishing some USA citizen" it was a general comment did I wrote : Hangtime is a nazi ?
No.

Concerning lie,I'm perhaps wrong but I do find a nazi liar  less dangerous than a murderer nazi.

Offline straffo

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« Reply #122 on: March 12, 2003, 03:31:02 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Sure!   But I don't agree with your theory - you do.

Trying to "trap" me by saying both groups are equally "POW" you only validated my argument that the French did indeed kill POWs, which answers your question of "hu" did they kill.  

Now that you agree that French did indeed kill POWs after ww2 in their colonial wars you must apply YOUR theory, (unless of course you are full of toejam and you are lying to us), and conclude that indeed the French are Nazis.


So really you are the only person who got trapped.



You can untrap yourself, however, by admitting openly that your "do as nazi equal nazi" or "killing 2 pow is same as 6million holcaust is the same" theories are plainly idiotic.


I guess you think I support the usage of torture of POW by French troop in Algeria  and other colonie ?

Wrong ,I'm against and I've ever manifested against some Algerian war  "hero" like général Ausaresse.

(btw the trap part was by itself a trap but you already know how twisted and complex I am :D)


Concerning the nazi I do think you are a nazi because of your individual act not because you governement is nazi.

Let try to  say that another way : the nazi were governing germany lot of german were nazi but not all were nazi (white rose for exemple).

It's the "amalgame" which is dangerous it's like saying : GRUNHERTZ you are from a former comunist country so you are comunist.

It's wrong no ?

Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #123 on: March 12, 2003, 03:32:52 AM »
But accoriding to your rules about killing POWs  France is a Nazi country....  And thats all that matters...


Do you think France is a Nazi country?

Offline straffo

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« Reply #124 on: March 12, 2003, 03:42:41 AM »
Wrong.

This rule is a pure individual rule I don't expand it to the whole country.

I agree that some French acted like Nazi in algeria and other country.

I DON'T AGREE WITH THEM.

They should have been judged like the nazi were as they were similar by their act.
It's a shame my country governement didn't take any action against them.

Offline beet1e

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« Reply #125 on: March 12, 2003, 03:43:08 AM »
Gentlemen, gentlemen!  You're starting to sound like Lazs and myself having a discussion about the role of LA7, and personal stats!

Offline straffo

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« Reply #126 on: March 12, 2003, 03:45:40 AM »
Did the LA7 use torture ?

Or is it a way to torture the other  ? ;)

Offline Pepe

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« Reply #127 on: March 12, 2003, 06:20:19 AM »
Personally, I find disgusting the the liberal way the "Nazi" word and concept is used as of nowadays.

It's utmost stupid to call someone nazi because he is a murder, let alone a liar.

A Nazi is a Nationalsocialist. Period. To be a Nazi you don't have just to be a murderer. You have to believe in races superiority, in ethnic cleansing and, ultimately, to physical anihilation of human being considered inferiors or opposing to your concept of life, world and politics as a feasible solution to problems, real or ideological.

I find it sickening how easy anybody uses the word "Nazi". It's amazing how somebody can use that word to refer to the USA or some Western government and his attitude against Iraq, conveniently forgetting that the concept fits much, much better to the Iraqi dictator. And it is plain false to apply it to any current western country.

Having said that, I classify that kind of people in two groups: ignorant illiterates who need serious history reading and people trying to annoy or offend me. To the ones on the first group, I can direct them to a couple of good books about Nationalsocialism's doctrine. To the second ones, simply they wont.

In this story there is one clear Nazi-to-be and he is Saddam. We can argue wether USA stance is better or worse than France's one. But not about who is the "bad guy". If you want to find a torturer, go look for him in Baghdad, and stop chasing shadows.

The blatant truth of the whole issue is that we (the whole world) have to deal with a mean, cruel and no-moral guy who has absolute no respect for any other concept than physical force. In this context, I find USA and allies position much, much more suitable of producing the desired results (peace) than France's and allies one.

Just my oppinion, of course.

Offline Fishu

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« Reply #128 on: March 12, 2003, 06:37:40 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hortlund
Some of you people are seriousy weird.

Lets see...torture captured terrorist to get them to reveal information about other terrorists ...slaughter and butcher 6 million jews, men, women, small children by gassing them in huge industrialized camps...

Yup same thing really. Same level. Yup.


You're the weird one here, if numbers are what makes for your validation for a torture.

1. How can you be sure they are terrorists who are being tortured and not just some innocent people caught just for being suspected, like many have been?

2. a handful or 6 million people tortured with goverments approval, same thing is done, regardless of numbers.

3. do you remember how germany became fascistic?
It wasn't just one days happening, but years of evolution, where more and more fascistic features were added along the time.

Offline Hortlund

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« Reply #129 on: March 12, 2003, 06:42:13 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Fishu
You're the weird one here, if numbers are what makes for your validation for a torture.

I think there are some cases when torture is acceptable. See my ticking bomb example above.

I think comparing this to what the nazis did is horribly wrong. Pepe said it very well.

Offline straffo

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« Reply #130 on: March 12, 2003, 07:06:51 AM »
I disagree Pepe , in my definition a nazi is nazi by his act not by is thought.

A Nazi can think whatever he want it's his own private thought he his free to have a brain full of hate and ethnic cleansing idea.

But when he is starting to act according to his twisted mind it's another figure.

Offline Pepe

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« Reply #131 on: March 12, 2003, 08:41:14 AM »
Straffo,

In my oppinion, If your brain is full of Nazi ideology, you are a Nazi. You can have an internal contradiction, not being able to live according to your beliefs, or you can be a blatant murder and live according to them. But you are a Nazi in both cases. In the first case a coward one, what only make things worse.

Nationalsocialism is an ideology. A terribly sick one, but an ideology. It's not a behaviour or a way of living. You can call "Nazi" to anyone acting in a certain way that you feel is particulary horrendous, but you will be only doing a favour to Nationalsocialism. The term and the concept "Nazi" is so ugly that using it lightly makes me sick. For me, "Nazi" is a very singular and particular concept that responds to a precise ideology, and I'm very scrupulous in not using it out of context.

Sincerely,

Offline straffo

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« Reply #132 on: March 12, 2003, 09:33:32 AM »
Ok I undertstand you opinion and agree with you ,but what word should be used instead ?

I don't know any word sharing the same uglyness.

For me someone not endorsing the ideologie but having the same behaviour is "nazi" even if he don't pretend to no be a nazi.

Offline Pepe

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« Reply #133 on: March 12, 2003, 09:47:06 AM »
In this particular thread, I would call pervert to anyone who justify torture as a mean to obtain information of a captive prisioner. Being Nazi is a lot worse, in my opinion.

I do not justify torture. I think it's a horrible thing to do. But I do not consider having women taking care of prisioners to be a torture. Nor I consider it using chemicals on them, as long as no severe pain is induced and not permanent sequels are inflicted.

When you face an enemy, you are obligued to try to obtain as much useful information as possible. On the means of doing this, I think there is not a red thin line where everyone of us can agree "from this line it is torture", but defintely there is a fuzzy red zone where you are at risk of torturing a prisoner. My position consists in being as far to this fuzzy red zone as to not have to question myself if this is torture or not. And it is a personal standing, as this matter is very subjective. Everyone will have his own position.

Offline straffo

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« Reply #134 on: March 12, 2003, 09:49:31 AM »
Sure Pepe,
That's the position I tryed to defend.

Badly as usual.