Ok, at the very least.....

[easymo]

 Not to horn in on someone else's furball  . But just a word on the turbo lazer death star comment. HT makes an attempt to portray the guns in a realistic way. With one exception. The bombers. Back in beta he admitted to gaming up the guns on them. Because he said no one would fly them otherwise. Now if it took 10 people to fly a B17, and the guns were the same 1.0000 as one fifty on a P51. I would have some respect for them, and would hunt them enthusiastically.

[Apache]

Revvin, you're interpretation skills need improving. Let me help. I, in approx. 8 years of online flights sims, have never advocated the removal of any aircraft, whether it be bomber or fighter. Where in my posts you discerned that is beyond me.
I'm not going to bore you or the rest of the community with my position again as it doesn't really matter in the end.

BTW, I could care less if the bombers fly level or not, I don't shoot at 'em.

[Revvin]

Same usual faces tryign to justify the castration of buffs until they can no longer defend themselves or better yet even be there in the first place.

While you guys are in denial there is just no reasoning with you, I've tried before and failed to hold a reasonable discussion with you and now my patience has worn a little too thin,its just the same tired old lines from you Lazs and it seems Apache is following in your footsteps...one thing puzzles me though Apache, you say you've flown online flight sims for 8 years and yet you've still to learn how to make an effective attack on a buff?? Same goes for you bud, just another whining fighter jock who is not interested in taking the time to make a proper run on a buff or has any desire to fly more than 5 mins to a furball. Guess the day the Quakebirds get their wishes is the day Aces High dies as a serious sim...floating powerups and BFG's won't be far behind on their list of requests I guess <shrug>

[paintmaw]

the big problem is this small map we have now

[pzvg]

I don't have to speculate what you think Lazs
You print your thoughts quite readily  

I offer ideas,you offer ideas, there should be no difference correct?

But you have generated a, (for lack of something more descriptive) fan club.
They don't care what you say, they just follow you around from post to post, vulching your words with abandon.
Now why is that? It's because you've antagonized them.
Now before we go overboard, yes fields need some adjustments made, bombers are too lethal and IMHO The problem's with strat are entirely due to there being no such thing as strat in this game, People hit targets for their TACTICAL value, not strategic.
What is missing here is the direct ability to impact one side's warfighting ability,
bomb a factory and it slows production of radar,troops, Etc. But you cannot go all out to knock out a side's bomber production, or curtail tank production.
There is no front, bombers are rarely intercepted by any side that isn't taking it's turn in the gangbang bucket.
Everything in the game is geared towards producing massive dogfights with a distinctive edge in numbers for one side, yet only the tactical air battle is labelled "gamey" So tell me anyone, At what point in the BoB or the Battle for Germany, did the fighter controllers say "Ignore that chaps, it's just some bombers heading for our factories, but there's a beauty of a low level knifefight out in the Channel"
Let me give you guys, (and not just lazs)
something to consider, If they actually put in a cause and effect method of affecting a side's capabilities, bombers would really become the main war winning machines.
And would this mean the end of the furball?
not really, You see if the bombers become so dangerous that they cannot be ignored, then people will have to make an effort to keep them out of their airspace, So that in order to use your bobmbers, a side will have to escort them, and try to wrest control of the air away from their opposition, not less furballs, but more, and with a purpose, not the mindless circle,kill,die that passes for air combat in multiplayer games.
Can HTC make something like this?
More than likely,
Will they? That's up to you now, ain't it?

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pzvg- "5 years and I still can't shoot"

[Midnight]

 

Originally posted by lazs:
More realistic strat is ok so long as it doesn't hurt gameplay (6 hour flights and never seeing an enemy your entire tour for instance).

Lazs.. you truely make no sense. On one hand you say the strat guys are flying around hiding from each other, while on the other hand you are whining that they are coming over to bomb your Fighter Hangers. Then you double talk again and say give the strat guys some big cities to go bomb so they can stay away from my Fighter Hanger.

If you think about it, the true strat guys will send some bombers to your precious field to bomb the Fighter Hangers even if their main thrust will be to bomb the city. Why? So they can have less fighters shooting at them while they are trying to drop their bombs!

There are plenty of other games out there with the main focus being on "furballing" just go play one of those. Obviously, AH is not going in the direction you want.



------------------
Midnight
13th TAS[/i]
       midnight@13thtas.com      

"You tell them I'm coming.. And Hell's coming with me!" -Kurt Russel Tombstone

[Revvin]

Midnight> While they are so very deep in denial they won't listen, thy just go round and round in circles saying one thing and then the other, there is no reason to their argument, they just want one big H2H arena and thats plain to see.

[lazs]

pz.. you have actually stated my point of view fairly clearly.   I too feel that there is no strat in the game and that large cities would be great.  the fields should be faily easy to capture and plentiful at the front with ac ability till the bitter end...  As for the "fan club" of whack-o-moles ... Yeah... they're kinda fun.   Sheesh, I say enough outlandish things you would think they could quote at least a couple even if out of context...

As you say.. the furballs would exist around the tactical targets like the (front line) close fields and the strat bombing and intercepting would exist (it doesn't now) around the large cities.  when all the cities were leveled the 'war' would be over.  maybe when the the city was leveled and all the tanks were killed... many possibilities.  Course.... a lone suicide buff would no longer be able to get all the attention he wanted by spoiling the fight for dozens of guys who couldn't care less but it would be more realistic and fair.

with airfields and radar the only "strat" the animosity between furballers and "strat" (or as u correctly put it, tactical) guys continues with each side violently oppossed to any new element that will affect (and it allways does) their game.   I agree with you that some simple things can be done to improve things for both..  probly one could go back to the original post and see one such improvement.
lazs

[Jekyll]

 

There is no front, bombers are rarely intercepted by any side that isn't taking it's turn in the gangbang bucket.
Everything in the game is geared towards producing massive dogfights with a distinctive edge in numbers for one side, yet only the tactical air battle is labelled "gamey" So tell me anyone, At what point in the BoB or the Battle for Germany, did the fighter controllers say "Ignore that chaps, it's just some bombers heading for our factories, but there's a beauty of a low level knifefight out in the Channel"
Let me give you guys, (and not just lazs)
something to consider, If they actually put in a cause and effect method of affecting a side's capabilities, bombers would really become the main war winning machines.
And would this mean the end of the furball?
not really, You see if the bombers become so dangerous that they cannot be ignored, then people will have to make an effort to keep them out of their airspace, So that in order to use your bobmbers, a side will have to escort them, and try to wrest control of the air away from their opposition, not less furballs, but more, and with a purpose, not the mindless circle,kill,die that passes for air combat in multiplayer games.

Only way to effectively accomplish this is with a two-sided war.  Not Axis-v-Allies (with the inevitable aircraft/vehicle restrictions on both sides), but an unrestricted battle between two opposing forces.  Fleets of escorted bombers, large scale ground battles ........ sounds like fun  

However, HT's opinion on this idea is well known, so you might as well just keep on dreaming.  

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When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
Chapter 13, verse 11

[lazs]

well... let's look at reality here.  There are a large group of players (me included) who will never be interested in escorting bombers or intercepting or the "big picture"..  You can't force us you can only force us to log.   If airfields easier to capture but planes availale to the bitter end we would be enticed to contribute to tactics if not really "strat"  we would help because it would be fun to help.

The only thing in our best interest is getting to the fight... the bigger the better.   The strat guys turn their nose up at that (for whatever reason) and that is fine.   I believe they need something to do.  With the big cities to be bombed and the war "won" that would be one element... furball/field capture would be another.   People who like to do both would have more choice not less.

course that wouldn't stop the strat guys from hysterical vitriol on channel one when people werent playing the way they "should" nor would it make the furballers pay any attention to em.  It would just offer choice.
lazs

[hazed-]

sorry but this system would favour the allied jabos if you ask me......

In a 190f8 you can take out 1 maybe 2 hangers if your lucky but the allied planes all carry 2000lbs, rockets and those damn hispano cannons.1 plane can get 2 possibly 3 hangers with the same effort it takes the lightly armed axis planes to kill 1 or 2.
I dont want to be forced to fly allied stuff when Im in a small jabo attack because im forced to kill a minimum of 3 hangers.If you want to almost endlessly spawn go to the large bases or better still stop the bombers from killing the Fighter hangers.
Laz Im afraid if you have been stopped from upping in fighter that is their win.The buffs did their job and youve failed in yours if you are a defender.
Its always possible to fly from a safe base to cap a wrecked one.
I dont personally want to see fighters upping like crazy as soon as Ive destroyed the FH's.
and besides then all hangers would be just 'hangers' not bomber and fighter thus reducing the scope of an attacks objective.
Hitting Buff hanger kills enemies 'base taking' ability,fighter hangers kill the defence fighters etc. Thats the whole game if you ask me so why change it just so you dont have to fly an extra 25 miles?
Seems to me you are asking to simplify the defenders role.Make it easier to not bother with any strat and just play it like a 3D space invaders game.
BORING  

 

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Hazed
3./JG2

[This message has been edited by hazed- (edited 04-01-2001).]

[lazs]

well hazed.. good point.  I never jabo so it doesn't occur to me but... we have no strat. if what we had were in a board game it would be the worst ever invented.   It is beyond silly and so, for me, boring but...  

If we had say revetments... any plane could kill a reveted plane with cannon or mg if they made a perfect attack but of course, allied (U.S.) planes with huge ordinance loads would still have the advantage... Hey.. I would rather have a lot more climb than a friggin bomb personally.

As for flying an extra 25 miles... well, If the only fun the strat guys get is making the game boring for a lot of people and ruining the experiance for them for hours on end then the strat is wrong.  It really is that simple.   You need things for both sides to do and intercepting the unrealistic buffs is not "something to do" so far as I'm concerned.
lazs

[Kieran]

For the life of me I cannot see where Apache became a bad guy in all of this... Always have fun flying with you and Commanche, and Lazs for that matter, no matter what kind of sortie I am flying. I have seen you guys play strat as well as furball, so I think the appellation applied to you in this thread is totally misplaced.

Just thought that needed a clarification.  

[Apache]

Thanks Kieran. I am at a loss myself. Never said I was against strat. As a matter of fact, I entered a debate in another thread by Lazs stating that very fact. I simply said here that I thought the current game play concession of the buffs was a little too much. If I am in the minority, so be it, I will live with it. I'm not gonna keep on rattling off and cause ill will towards anyone. Again, thanks Kieran, we enjoy winging with you as well  .