4 cannon armed Spits.

[AronL]

dont want 4 hispanos

[vorticon]

got that damn straight loser...i especcially like when spit 5's try to turnfight the hurri2c excpecting to outturnit...funny toejam

[Squire]

Most of the Spitfire XIVs built in WW2 saw service, thats the big difference.

[MiloMorai]

Originally posted by Squire
There are no less than 30 listed from RAF, RCAF, RAAF, RNZAF and other "Foreign manned" RAF squads listed. Not all were ETO squads, but most were.

Squire, are you saying that on, say May 1, 1945, that there was at least 30 Squadrons equiped with the Spit XIV? Just because it says a squadron flew the Spit XIV does not mean it was equiped with that a/c on a specific date, like May 1945. Now further, of the almost 700 Spit XIV's produced until May 1945, you are saying that only approx. 200 were lost, to all causes, in the 16-17 months of  use (Jan '44 til May '45). That is for 16 a/c = 1 squadron(16x30=480). If 20 a/c = 1 squadron then Spit XIV losses would only be around 100 a/c (20x30=600).

[Squire]

No, those were also post war numbers. There were at least 10 squads that flew it on operations in WW2.

I edited my post above.

Some of the WW2 Squads that flew it were: 610, 91, 350, 401, 402, 414, 17, 47, 132, 130, 322. Thats not a total list, just the ones I have found so far.

They were certainly more common than Ta512s or Me262s.

I didnt mention loss #s, dont know where you got that.

If some folks talk about rarity, ask them compared to what?

[MiloMorai]

The loss numbers came from your edited claim that there was 30 Spit XIV squadrons. Knowing the number of a/c in a squadron (16 > 20) multiplied by the 30 squadrons and subtracting that from the total number produced will give you a loss number.



But since you mentioned Me262, there was 1433 manufactured. Of this total 497 were classed as production losses (destroyed before delivery to LW).  That leaves 936 that the LW received in 14 months of production. That is 200-250 more than Spit XIV war time production.

[Squire]

11 Squadrons that flew Spitfire XIVs in WW2:  610, 91, 350, 401, 402, 414, 17, 47, 132, 130, 322.

As for produced #s, that means nothing. How many squadrons were equipped with Me 262s that flew them? Most of them were never used. In fact only about 100 Me262s ever flew on operations, so again, for historical rarity, the Me262 is the rarer bird, by far. Of the Ta152, a whopping 60 saw service with operational units.

[Karnak]

Spitfire Mk XIVs were common enough to be the main fighter of the 2nd Tactical Airforce from September, 1944 to the end of the European Theatre war and to see service in Burma against the Japanese.  They were also flown off of a British CV to support an attack on some island or other (therre was no Japanese aerial opposition in that case as it happens).

Remember, production doesn't tell all.  A low production aircraft that sees each airframe used heavily is more common and more significant than a moderate or high production aircraft in which most airframes do nothing and a few see light use.

[MiloMorai]

LW units that flew the Me262 (there could be more):

Eprbungskommando 262
Kommando Nowotny
Kommando Schenk
I./KG51
Stab KG51
II./KG51
Kommando Edelweis
I./JG7
II./JG7
III./JG7
JG10
III./Erganzungsjagdgeschwader/JG2
KG(J)6
KG(J)27
KG(J)30
IV./Erganzungsjagdgeschwader/KG51
Kommando Stamp
Kommando Welter
NJG/11
I./KG(J)54
Einsatz Kommando Braunegg
Nahaufklarungruppe 6
1/versuchverband Ob. d.l.
JV44
I/Erganzungsjagdgeschwader/KG(J)
II/Erganzungsjagdgeschwader/KG(J)

This is many more units than Spit units listed.

Note that a Staffel was = to a British squadron and that a Gruppe (British Wing) had 3 or 4 staffels and a JG had 3-4 Gruppe(9-16 staffels).

Are you saying the above units only had ~4 Me262s each? That leaves ~800 Me262s unaccounted for. All units were in a combat zone and could be engaged in combat.

Were those 11 squadrons (say 200 a/c) flying the Spit on May 1 1945? Now, no more evasion, please tell me how many Spitfire XIVs were on the RAF's and other AFs OoB on May 1 1945.  If you know, it would be greatly appreciated.


No debatting the Ta152 was a rare bird but only details of ~40 are know.

[Karnak]

MiloMorai,

The vast majority of the 1400 Me262s built never flew.  Only about 100 saw action.  They were very effective, but they were rare.

Also the Germans had the tendancy late in the war to call two fighters a unit and other BS.  They simply weren't very organized anymore.  That list of units is nice, but...

Were they full units?

Did they actually receive the Me262s they were supposed to have?

Did they fly combat missions in Me262s?


I'm sorry you don't like Spits and want to marginalize them.  I don't have a complete squadron listing, but believe us when we say that it saw heavy usage.

[MiloMorai]

Ah, I hate Spits. What a laugh!

Sorry not so. I still see neither of you have any specific info as to the number of Spit XIVs operational on any specific date. Only a generization. That is too bad since I would have liked to have quoted you to this Isegrim.

So some units had 6 or 8 a/c if others were 'paper' units(???) It still averages out to ~4 a/c per listed unit. Why don't you check out the units and report back. The units listed are from an American book. (for your bias phobia)

Now,

3 March 1945 29 Me262s from Stab and III./JG7 took off to intercept Allied bombers.

7 March 1945 ~30 Me262s from II./KG51 took off to escort some Ar234s.

13 March 1945 22 Me262s from I./KG51 took off on a mission.

26 March 1945, 25 Me262s from I./KG(J)54 transferred bases.

I am over 100 a/c from different units and only from March 1945 and have not listed any from JV44 yet, as well as some other units such as NAGs and EJGs.
 
8 Apr. 1945 1./NAG6 had 6 Me262s. I./JG7 had 15 Me262s in the air.

LW Quartermaster General list at least 162 operational Me262s with combat units 9 April 1945 (JV44 had 12 to 15 a/c)

You two still claim only 100 Me262s saw service?


More,

Kommando Schenk was at Chateaudun France in July 1944 that is SSW of Paris, ~ 110km away, with 9 a/c flying missions. This unit then became part of I./KG51.

Dec. 1944, 52 Me262 to KG51 and 5 to KG54. Both units flew combat.

Lets keep going.

Dec. 1944, 41 to III./JG7, 15 to I./KG(J)54

Feb 1945, 28 to III./KG(J)54, 25 to I./JG7, 19 to II./KG(J)54, 13 to I./KG(J)54, 10 TO II./JG7, 7 to III./JG7, 6 to III./KH(J)6, 3 to 10./NJG11

What is the count up to now? You  two really should do some better research.

That is enough, as can be seen your  only ~100 Me262s to see operational use is bogus.

[Karnak]

I guess because we don't have the documents that they weren't used.

[VO101_Isegrim]

Originally posted by MiloMorai
Squire, from "Spitfire: the History" I count 684 Mk XIV built  by May 1945. There could be more but the production runs of the others goes into 1946.


A Vo101 Isegrim, a certified German is 'uber' , all else is crap fanatic, claims  there was very few RAF squadrons equiped with the Mk XIV - claims less than 10, iirc. It would be nice to know what RAF squadrons were so equiped in May and Sept 1945.

This is OT but am curious about which squadrons.


oh yes, 20mm = 0.7874"

Did you called your Master, Briddy? Btw, weren`t you banned from Ubi Forum for your continous agressive style already?

Well we can repeat that here, too.


As for SPitfire XIVs... a whole 7 Fighter Squadrons were operational during WW2 in the RAF, as the following:

610th: From Jan 1944

91th, 322th from March 1944

130th, 350th, 402nd from August 1944

and 41th from September 1944

First combat loss did not occur until 29th April 1944.

That`s seven squadrons... each Squadron may hold up to a maximum of 20 planes, but in reality losses made that to 12-15, ie. some Typhoon sqaudron ha no more than 2-3 planes out ofthe 20 in the end of 1944.

Counting with a very typcal 75% readiness level (excluding repair), we have around 100 Spitifre XIVs in the whole RAF.

BTW, it was a good joke that the XIV was the premier fighter of the 2nd TAF... they had 4 Fighter Squads equipped with them, plus one fighter-recon equipped with a mix of Mustangs and FR XIVs.
In the meantime the rest of the 30 Squadrons of  the 2nd TAF used the old Spit IXs and XVIs.

It`s extremely interesting to compare that number with the number of Bf 109K-4s, G-10s and G-14/AS in the LW fighter units, Jan 1945. These amounted as much as 933 planes in first line combat units (thus 65% of the 109s were of these subtypes). Out of that 314 were Bf109K-4s, at least according to the RL2III/1158 document.

Production numbers are also interesting to compare. Little over 2500 G-10s, 1620 to 1720 K-4s, 686 G-6/AS and around 1835 G-14/AS were built, and around 1400 Me-262s.


On 9th April, there were 180 Me-262 in use with the Luftwaffe combat units, not counting those Schwalbes which were used for training.


"The best thing about the Spitfire XIV was that there were so few of them."

-Adolf Galland

[MiloMorai]

Why would I call you BarbI? I was going to give the Spit XIV info to you. But thanks for being somewhat more informative here than at Ubi. When are you going to post some LW performance charts? Not those questionable Russian ones either. Are you afraid they do not show your claims?


Doing the Issy Twist again are we BarbI? How about applying those German a/c  manufacture numbers in a simular manner to the way you did for the RAF's a/c numbers.


Now the other matter.
You are not a good teacher BarbI, for I did not learn my lessons from you on how to obnoxious, rude, agressive, ignorant, insulting well enough it seems. As you noticed this AM, I am still at Ubi. Your backstabbing was for naught. How was your "vacation", er ban, earlier this past week? Must be about 1/2 a dozen times now you have got one of these little "vacations". Must be that pro Europian bias by the Ubi moderators, especially Tully, that lets you keep coming back.