Author Topic: Saddam  (Read 3049 times)

Offline crowMAW

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Re: Saddam
« Reply #30 on: March 28, 2003, 10:40:03 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by OZkansas
What will the world gain if Saddam is removed from power:


> 1. Iraqi will have an opportunity to taste freedom
> and install a government they chose.

This is not a benefit to the world only the Iraqi people.  The Iraqi people already have the government that they chose.  If the majority of Iraqis wanted something different, they would have revolted just as the people of the USSR, East Germany, Poland, and Iran revolted against their oppressive totalitarian governments. (Of course Iran replaced it with another oppressive gov't in our opinion, but it is still a gov't that they freely chose).

> 2. The neighbors of Iraq will no longer fear
> invasion by Saddam.

The neighbors of Iraq have not feared invasion by Saddam for the 12 years since the end of the 1st Gulf War.  If Iraqs neighbors truly feared Saddam they would all be with us in this fight.  Instead: Syria and Jordan (both who supported the US in the 1st Gulf War) have denounced this invasion; Turkey won't let us use their border to enter Iraq (which they did in the 1st Gulf War); more than 90% of the Saudi people are against the war; only Kuwait stands with us (but some Kuwaitis have attack our troops which shows they don't all love us like they did when we rescued their country in '91).  And then there is Iran...do you really care if Iraq and Iran have another war?  I don't.

> 3. This regime represents a potential source
> for weapons for terrorist.  The people of the
> USA will feel safer.

Trust is also a major issue for Saddam. There is no terrorist group that he could trust enough to be sure that the weapons that he would supply them would only be used against the US and not turned back against him. The concept of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" is not valid when you have an individual who is so paranoid for his safety that he sleeps in a different bed every night and employs several body doubles.

Further, the enemy of my enemy is not my friend if I consider him my enemy also.  Middle East experts agree (including our own CIA) that UBL and Al Qaeda are enemies of Saddam.  The Al Qaeda training camps in Kurdish controlled northern Iraq were there to train Kurds how to fight against Saddam, not fight for him.

I for one (and there are many others) feel less safe because of this action.  This invasion is the best recruiting drive that Al Qaeda has ever had...thank you Mr. Bush.[/i]

> 4. The Iraqi people will be free from fear.
> Oil will be a wealth that all Iraqi people will participate.

Again, that is only a benefit for the Iraqi people.  I really could not care less about them if they don't have the balls to start a revolution without our help.

> 5.  One less dictator the world will have to tolerate.

The only one I agree with.  But I think it is damn arrogant of us to then become the judge of other world leaders and become the instrument of their removal if we determine that they are not so nice a guy.  There are too many out there...some of whom we currently call friend (such as the leader of Pakistan).

> 6. Perhaps the new Iraq will help change the
> Middle East from kingdoms and theocracy to
> governments that the people participate as a force.

Not likely.  The Kurds are primarily Wahabbi, which is the same Islamic sect that UBL belongs to.  The southern Iraqis share their Shi'a beliefs with Iranians...no country comprised of majority Shi'ites carved from former Iraq would be autonomous from Iran IMHO.

> I have to wonder why so many around the world
> are so afraid of these changes?

I think it is clear that this invasion destabilizes the region, increases the likelihood for more frequent terrorist attacks against the US, has destabilized oil prices and has destroyed the goodwill the US had after 9/11.  Seems like pretty good reasons to be afraid of Bush and his policies.

Offline Toad

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Re: Re: Saddam
« Reply #31 on: March 28, 2003, 11:06:16 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by crowMAW
> The Iraqi people already have the government that they chose.  If the majority of Iraqis wanted something different, they would have revolted just as the people of the USSR, East Germany, Poland, and Iran revolted against their oppressive totalitarian governments.  


Ding!

Time out. Kurds estimate ~180,000 Kurds lost to the Anfal genocide used to stop their revolt. Until the establishment of the Northern no-fly zone, they were basically being attacked.

Shiites in the South have a similar story.

They revolted.. they lost.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Siaf__csf

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« Reply #32 on: March 28, 2003, 11:45:45 AM »
It might be difficult to understand the reality in countries like that if you've born in a western democracy.

Offline Martlet

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« Reply #33 on: March 28, 2003, 11:47:32 AM »
As it might be hard to understand the realities of western democracy if you are born in "countries like that".

Offline Toad

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« Reply #34 on: March 28, 2003, 11:50:58 AM »
I admit, it would be hard for me to understand my tongue being ripped out if I said I think Bush should have waited for UN Sanction.

Or my Dad being fed into a shredder in front of me because he said he thought we ought to have at least two candidates to vote for in the Presidential election instead of just one.

Of my son being tortured by the government because his football team lost a game.

I admit I have a hard time understanding stuff like that.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline crowMAW

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« Reply #35 on: March 28, 2003, 12:33:07 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
Time out. Kurds estimate ~180,000 Kurds lost to the Anfal genocide used to stop their revolt. Until the establishment of the Northern no-fly zone, they were basically being attacked.

Shiites in the South have a similar story.

They revolted.. they lost.


DING...guess that was not the majority then, huh?

Kurds make up 15% of Iraq's 22million people.  The Iraqi Shi'ites in the central and north, which is roughly half of the Iraqi population, evidently didn't rise up like their southern brothers.

Offline Toad

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« Reply #36 on: March 28, 2003, 03:57:29 PM »
Too funny.

Are you going to make the case that the Baath party... the folks with the guns and heavy weapons.... are the majority population?

Or are you going to admit that the guys with the guns can pretty much ignore the majority that doesn't have any guns?

The Shiites in the south did not rebel after the '91 Gulf War? Do yourself a favor and put "1991 shiite revolt iraq" into a search engine and  see what you get.

Here's a hint from CBS:

Quote
March 2, 1991  
 
 Shiite Muslims revolt against Saddam in southern Iraq. Later, they are joined by Kurds in the north. Both rebellions are savagely crushed after a month of fighting.


Educate yourself.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline crowMAW

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« Reply #37 on: March 28, 2003, 04:36:42 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
Are you going to make the case that the Baath party... the folks with the guns and heavy weapons.... are the majority population?

Toad,

Where did I say that the Ba'ath Party was the majority?  Please quote it.

Who had the guns and heavy weapons in the USSR?  Are they in power today?  

Who had the guns and heavy weapons in Communist Poland? Are they in power today?

Who had the guns and heavy weapons in East Germany?  Are they in power today?

Who had the guns and heavy weapons in Romaina?  Is he in power today?

Who had the guns and heavy weapons in Iran 25 years ago?  Is he in power today?

If 20 million Iraqis decided to take out the 2 million in the Ba'ath Party and replace them with another group they could do it. If they want Saddam out of there baddly enough, then they can get rid of him.

I am not so arrogant to think that I should make that decision for them like I would for little children.  They are adults and they can choose who they want as their leader.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2003, 04:50:54 PM by crowMAW »

Offline Toad

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« Reply #38 on: March 28, 2003, 04:45:16 PM »
One step at a time, speedy.

Defend this one:

Quote
crow:
The Iraqi Shi'ites in the central and north, which is roughly half of the Iraqi population, evidently didn't rise up like their southern brothers


Are you standing by this?

Be happy to address the rest after you answer that.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline BGBMAW

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« Reply #39 on: March 28, 2003, 05:31:59 PM »
YEs

Crow..

answer this one to please


Quote
If the majority of Iraqis wanted something different, they would have revolted just as the people of the USSR, East Germany, Poland, and Iran revolted against their oppressive totalitarian governments.



So East Germany freed them selves??? Please explain how they did this.


And IRAQ is a free country...strange..Only 1 guy can run for president...How the hell can anyone say thats free??

Offline crowMAW

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« Reply #40 on: March 28, 2003, 06:01:43 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
One step at a time, speedy.

Are you standing by this?

Be happy to address the rest after you answer that.

Yup...here's how:

The southern governances of Iraq and their populations from the Iraqi census nearest to 1991, which was in 1987, are: (http://memory.loc.gov/frd/cs/iraq/iq_appen.html)

An Najef 723,000
Al Muthanna 313,000
Al Basrah 872,000
Dhi Qar 918,000
Maysan 500,000

Which totals 3,326,000 folks.  The '87 census indicated that Iraq had 16.3 million.  That means only 20% of the population is in southern Iraq if those data remained constant (I'll correct for population shift below).

It is estimated that 60% of Iraq is Shi'a.  (http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/iz.html)Based on '87 figures that means that 9.8 million would have been Shi'a.  If *all* the people in the southern governances were Shi'a that would mean that 6.5 million Shi'ites live other than in the south.  What does that mean?  It means that 66% of the Shi'ites didn't live in the south.

Now, has this has actually changed...yes, but only to make it worse for the southern Shi'ites.  There has not been another census since '87, however observers have indicated that there has been a population shift to the cities so that now Baghdad, which has the largest concentration of people,  has a Shi'a majority.(http://atheism.about.com/library/FAQs/islam/countries/bl_IraqIslamRelations.htm)  Observers also indicate that the population of the south's largest city, Basra declined between '77 to '87 from 800,000 to 400,000. (http://lcweb2.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?frd/cstdy:@field(DOCID+iq0030) ) So, by the early '90s the actual % of Shi'ites in the south was probably even less than the % I used.

You got data to dispute this Sparky??
« Last Edit: March 28, 2003, 06:09:32 PM by crowMAW »

Offline crowMAW

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« Reply #41 on: March 28, 2003, 06:07:14 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by BGBMAW
So East Germany freed them selves??? Please explain how they did this.


Well, perhaps I am mistaken...did I miss where someone invaded East Germany and tore down the Berlin Wall for them?

Quote

And IRAQ is a free country...strange..Only 1 guy can run for president...How the hell can anyone say thats free??


Was that in response to something I wrote??  I don't recall writing anything that said that Iraq was a free country.  In fact I think I said something that indicated that the people of Iraq could revolt and overthrow a dictator.

Offline BGBMAW

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« Reply #42 on: March 28, 2003, 06:20:35 PM »
no what do you mean by this?

Crow says
Quote
The Iraqi people already have the government that they chose.


"They Chose"...yes..ooooh honey who are you voting for today..well..lets see the ballot...

1) Soddom
2)Soddom

wow..Crow..they have so many choices!!!
I guess thats why Soddom got 99% of the last "election" !

lol

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by BGBMAW
So East Germany freed them selves??? Please explain how they did this.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Crow says....
Well, perhaps I am mistaken...did I miss where someone invaded East Germany and tore down the Berlin Wall for them?

----------------------------------------------------------------

Lmfao..Crow..u answer a question with a question...

Again..EXplain to me how the East Germans and the rest of these east block countries free'd themselves?



This is my answer...
And yes..the Wetsern Nations put pressure on the Gov...Arms race..sanctions ect..this made there crappy as$ Communists/Socliast regime fold...sure in the hell wasnt becuase the East Germans revolted..and it took 50 + years


Ohh ok..so what you are saying. is..East Germans Physicaly tore the wall down so that means they actually collapsed the Russina rule over the country/??   hahaha..if thats what you mean u are right..lololol


One more Crow quote..

Quote
they would have revolted just as the people of the USSR, East Germany, Poland, and Iran revolted against their oppressive totalitarian governments.


I never saw this revolt...must have been quik..I beleive it was more of an implosion then revolt..They proved there style of government is a hunk of crap..
« Last Edit: March 28, 2003, 06:24:57 PM by BGBMAW »

Offline Toad

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« Reply #43 on: March 28, 2003, 06:42:58 PM »
You're still dancing faster than the music.

We'll get to population if you wish.

Are you saying there was no Shiite revolt in '91?

Let's get that clear, then address your "points".

Thx.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Arlo

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« Reply #44 on: March 28, 2003, 07:43:28 PM »
Ronald Reagan: Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall.

Gorbachev: Yes, sir.

Quote
Originally posted by crowMAW
Well, perhaps I am mistaken...did I miss where someone invaded East Germany and tore down the Berlin Wall for them?