Author Topic: Women in war  (Read 2488 times)

Offline miko2d

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Women in war
« Reply #105 on: March 28, 2003, 01:47:33 PM »
lazs2: I am also willing to bet  that even a beat up old 53 year old like me would have no trouble beating the crap out of your  israeli female friend.

 That particular israeli, you probably have a chance, if you are good enough.  My 23 year old friend who was a finalist in the Belorussia women Judo would probably tie you into a knot with one hand tied.
 A few women athletes I personally knew back in Ukraine would put up quite a fight and probably kick the s#$t out of 95 men out of a 100.
 I trained attack dogs with one - dressed in regular civilian clothes and gloves, not padded suits, lest to teach dogs bad habits. She was 150 pounds and would disable an attacking great dane or any other dog - mostly german sheperds (without harming one) faster that you would realise what is going on. She also run 30 miles marathones with men.
  The other one, from an elite "intelligentsia" soviet family, who run off and made her living in Istanbull bordello for a few years, before getting here, graduating straight A in computer science and getting a job in a major bank - or the other one, the daughter of a Moldavian government official whom we "kidnapped" from a visiting soviet student group in 1990, who lived with no money or other help, besides advice, and is now a medical resident doctor after graduating Harward - both would break under torture way later than 99.9% of the men, if I know anything about people.

 All girls in my high school shot rifles better then boys.
 The most vicious people I've known personally - and I knew quite a lot - were women.

 All those were exception rather than a rule - or more accurately the right tail of the bell curve, not an exception, but there were quite a few of them.

 Replacing the worst males in the military with some of them would not be detrimental in any way. I just cannot comprehend denying a person with proven capabilities an opportunity to do any job that is open to another person of the same capabilities, based on circumstances of a birth, regardless who is going to get upset or take it the wrong way.

 I know all about customs and traditions that formed spontaneously but make a lot of sense. But we are talking about exceptional individuals here and such always existed and even circumvented rules and traditions without destroying them.

 miko

Offline midnight Target

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Women in war
« Reply #106 on: March 28, 2003, 02:00:00 PM »
Quote
Do you know what happens to women who raise their levels to those of mens?


They drive El Camino's ?

Offline Kanth

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Women in war
« Reply #107 on: March 28, 2003, 02:03:29 PM »
They end up with alot more hair on their asses.

btw I was very clear on my position, if they can do the job they should be there, gender regardless..

I never said anything about "all women" in fact my point is that it's non gender based.

Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
Do you know what happens to women who raise their levels to those of mens?
lazs
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Offline lazs2

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Women in war
« Reply #108 on: March 28, 2003, 02:27:19 PM »
mt... some do but they can't work on em.   El Caminos are allmost certain proof of manhood in most circles... I believe black males prefer rancheros tho due to the fact that they have more chrome and phony scoops and such.

miko... i really doubt that those women can beat 95 out of 100 men.  I would have no fear of them whatsoever.  still.... you have missed my point entirely... i know that you have better than average rrading comprehension ability so I can only assume that you are sidestepping the issue.    Again... I believe that it would be bad for everyone except for the few freaks who want it.   I do not advocate making combat tougher for all the men that have to do it.   I don't advocate making firefighting or police work tougher either but combat in particular.

Offline Scootter

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Women in war
« Reply #109 on: March 28, 2003, 02:43:32 PM »
Ex USAF  (DOS 11/80)

Seen it and don't like it

I’m old fashioned I guess but I don't want girls in combat no how no way. War is bad and nasty stuff, no place for a woman.

my $.02

Offline miko2d

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Women in war
« Reply #110 on: March 28, 2003, 02:48:22 PM »
lazs2: i really doubt that those women can beat 95 out of 100 men.

 Those - maybe. I did not measure to know exactly. But some women certainly can.

 You can look at the mean and standard deviation of distribution of women's and man's abilities - any abiliteis, all known an measured, and accurately predict how many women will be better than 95% of men. Not many, true - but a few thousand out of US population. Plain math - no tricks, nothing to doubt or even measure - just to use existing data and math tables.

 How many women are taller than 95% of men? Have more muscle mass? Bench more weight? Run faster, jump further? All there.

 Sinse Spec Ops probably find one out of a million men suitable, there may not be any women fit, but for regular army the treshhold is not that high - maybe 2 out of 10 men, 1 out of 100,000 women - but some would pass.

 At the same time the real negative side effects you refer to are mostly hypothetical - since the most women currently serving are not representative sample of those that should be allowed to serve

 The cultural aspect of your argument - ignoring their abilities and sacrificing their desires for the benefit of cultural pregudices is quite valid.
 Here we can disagree just based on our preferences.
 Of course there is an ultimate reality test of such cultural preferences too - prosperity and survival of a civilisation, but I do not think this particular choice, whichever way it goes, is going to be significant compared to the other ones we make.

 miko
« Last Edit: March 28, 2003, 02:54:33 PM by miko2d »

Offline lazs2

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Women in war
« Reply #111 on: March 29, 2003, 09:26:53 AM »
miko... no matter what... you would lose effectiveness... the men would react differently in the presence of women... that part is hardwired into us as humans... That is bad news in combat.   The women would also either shower and sleep with the men (and everything else) or have special accomadations.   that is bad either way... how men react to women sexulaly is hardwired into humans.   (heinlein excepted).

you yourself note how few would be acceptable..  (I have seen many combats with men against women but that were entertainment but have never seen a woman win)... I disagree that there are women with more natural upper body strength than normal men.   The potential is certainly not there.  

So.. what is the advantage?   none that I can see.   The VAST majority of women will not apprecdiate the brave new world that kanth wishes on them.   Kanth would open, throw open, the door to drafting women as combat troops and both of you seem to advocate treating women as equals in domestic confrontations.  or is that not correct?

lazs

Offline miko2d

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Women in war
« Reply #112 on: March 29, 2003, 10:31:47 AM »
lazs2: miko... no matter what... you would lose effectiveness... the men would react differently in the presence of women...

 Maybe - but not always. Soviet army I knew would certainly not have lost any combat efficiency due to soft-heartedness. Guys that I served with would not care in the least if a woman buddy rather than a man way lying there screaming her throat out. Not a bit.
 Of course the peacetime efficiency would suffer enourmously...

 Probably it would be the opposite in the US army - affect the combat but not the peacetime where soldiers do have access to women and are more civil in general.

 I guess some problems could be corrected by having all-female units if enough are available.

 Also, I certainly do not approve of drafting women for abilities and biological reasons - you can lose most of the males but not have an affect on the number of children in the next generation. Somebody has to produce and care for children and we have no choice which gender is that.
 But I would allow them to enlist voluntarily - those who decide for themselves that they do not care for children (like many do now for "career") but rather be like men - and pass the muster. Who am I to deny them a choice?

 As for "treating women as equals in domestic confrontations", I do not understand what you mean by that. I believe in chivalry code but how the heck could it be affected legally? It's a cultural thing that parents and educators instill. I can only affect my own children in that respect - teach boys to be manly and girls to be feminine. That all in civil setting, of course. In confrontation if one has to hurt a person, underestimating and "sparing" a women can be very deadly.
 Both will have to be proficient at shooting and martial arts of course.

 miko

Offline Kanth

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Women in war
« Reply #113 on: March 29, 2003, 12:08:49 PM »
Absolutely.

My personal opinon about fighting:

Never hit someone in regards to freedom of speech, they found this right so valuable they put in on paper in a form and that's good enough for me..

however if someone attacks me I will defend myself and so should anyone who values their health and life.
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Also if a domestic confrontation gets to the point where one person would actually strike another, it should have been over LONG LONG before that. There is no love that includes people beating the crap out of each other, there is no love that includes cheating on each other..

people have to know when something is bad and to let it go.

it is poor judgement and asking for trouble to do otherwise.

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I believe that no matter how righteous your cause, you do not have the right to interfere or cause harm to another unless you or yours are directly in danger from that person...

and it's your responsibility as a reasonable person to prevent any situations of that nature from occuring where humanly possible.

those are my own personal beliefs.
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Basically this follows a theme of freedom to determine one's own life and happiness without any right to inflict yourself or your own opinions on others as long they are not a danger to yourself and your family.

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the answer is, yes, equals in all things.

and may the stupid rid us of themselves in the process.

Quote
Originally posted by lazs2

both of you seem to advocate treating women as equals in domestic confrontations.  or is that not correct?

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Offline OIO

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Women in war
« Reply #114 on: March 29, 2003, 12:09:23 PM »
Physically the woman's body does not have anywhere close to the muscle mass a man's body has.

Its just how the female and male bodies evolved. Cant do much about it.

Now, that there are women that can beat the stuffing out of a man yes. However, we would be talking about an extra-ordinary woman beating up an average man.

Im talking sheer strength, not judo or whatnot training.

Combat roles for a woman, in my opinion, would be all except for the ground foot soldier role. Women are at par with men as pilots, sailors, tank crews, etc. But when it comes to picking up several dozen pounds of gear and fighting with that hanging from their backs, the average male has a significant advantage over the average female.

BTW, ask your Israeli friend if women in the israeli army are front line combat troops. Ive met many fascinating israeli ladies, one of them was even an officer in the infantry, and theyve all told me they would not be allowed into ground combat as foot soldiers unless it was absolutely neccessary. This officer girl would tell me that while she didnt feel she would underperform a male officer, she agreed that when push came to shove, a male officer would be more effective FIGHTING (not leading) than she would.

All I can say is that if I were 18 and were assigned as a rifleman in a unit and we had one or 2 girls in the unit, their presence would very likely distract me a lot (hormones, nothing you can do about that), and if in combat one of them got hurt, my morale would drop a ****load more than if one of the guys got hit.

Offline lazs2

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Women in war
« Reply #115 on: March 30, 2003, 09:40:40 AM »
kanth.. that is very easy for you to say... if you are struck by a man he is in deep ****.. legally and... if any MAN i know is around... he is in danger of a good beating.   As best I can recall.... I don't hit people for free speech issues... If they are in my "space" and worked up I may take them out as a precaution (read "i was scared to death officer")... I would not do so with a woman... I have been struck by women... it's no reason to strike back...   I have struck a womans forearm (left a huge bruise) who was pointing a gun at my brother.   Being hit by a woman is NOT a reason for a civilized man to hit back.   You are simply wrong.  What you advocate is wrong.  Fortunately...  you are in a very small minority.

miko.... all woman combat units?  now you are getting silly and... grasping at straws.. as for Soviet army as a model... surely you jest... WWII Soviet armies just needed bodies to stop bullets... any would do... rape and torture were day to day events and shooting your own retreating troops was the order of the day.... I reject any arguement that uses the soviet army.   Also... if you read what kanth writes then you will see just what the ultimate goal of such feminist crazies is in regards to "domestic" issues... the combat units just open the door.

The israli's were desperate and outnumbered and even they have found the folly of women combat troops... for the reasons I have mentioned pretty much... If any country has a need for your brave new world it is theirs and they reject it.
lazs

Offline Kanth

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Women in war
« Reply #116 on: March 30, 2003, 10:20:29 AM »
I knew a woman who thought like you did, she figured you can hit anyone you like, as long as it's not a child, and it's all legal.

 she probably thought it was okay to beat up kids too as long as no one sees you.

strange world.

Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
kanth.. that is very easy for you to say... if you are struck by a man he is in deep ****.. legally
lazs
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