Author Topic: What planes do you absolutely hate? (Read 4469 times)

SlapShot · « **Reply #120 on:** April 03, 2003, 09:13:15 AM »

<> Ack-Ack ... You are the only one making sense here.

My understanding of the term "Uber" mean super, above all.

If that is not the case, then please enlighten me as to the definition of uber.

Running with my definition, what is it about the Spits, the N1k, and the La-7 that are so "uber/super" ?

Has HTC purposley porked these planes to the point that they are flying so far out of their technical envelope that they are given the tag of "uber", and at the same they have tried very hard to make all other planes fly within their own technical envelope?

Please present bonifide technical test data that would prove the fact that these planes in question are "uber/arcade" in how they perform. With this proof, the test data must prove without a doubt that the planes in question are far, and I mean far, outperforming RL technical test data. Personal experiences and fights in the MA with these planes does not constitute proof.

Its time to put up or STFU about uber this and uber that.

gofaster · « **Reply #121 on:** April 03, 2003, 09:51:49 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by SlapShot
Please present bonifide technical test data that would prove the fact that these planes in question are "uber/arcade" in how they perform. With this proof, the test data must prove without a doubt that the planes in question are far, and I mean far, outperforming RL technical test data. Personal experiences and fights in the MA with these planes does not constitute proof.

RL technical test data doesn't apply in the MA. Only MA physics apply in the MA.

SlapShot · « **Reply #122 on:** April 03, 2003, 10:02:13 AM »

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Originally posted by gofaster
RL technical test data doesn't apply in the MA. Only MA physics apply in the MA.

Thats what I expected ... always interpretation and conjecture ... never anything solid.

Ack-Ack · « **Reply #123 on:** April 03, 2003, 11:09:32 AM »

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Originally posted by gofaster
Now try it without using flaps, like a Spit and N1K2 can.

Gee...why don't I turn off an engine too and fly blind folded while I'm at it. Regardless if flaps are deployed or not, it still doesn't take away the fact that the P-38 is the better of the three 'Uber' planes in the vertical and in stall fights. In stall fights the reason why the P-38 has the slight edge is because of it's gentle stall characteristics and no torque. Fly any of those three 'Uber' planes in a turn fight at stall speeds and you'll fight the torque more than the enemy.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that the N1K2, Spitfire or the La-7 are crappy planes, I'm just saying they're not some 'Wonder Weapon' and refuse to buy into the 'mystique' of the Uber triplets.

If you want to run at the sight of a N1K2, Spitfire or La-7 because in your mind their virtually undefeatable, that's your choice. I myself would rather shoot them down.

Quote

A P-38 can dance if you...

...want to, we can leave your friends behind
Cause if your friends don't dance and if they don't dance
Well their no friends of mine...

Hehe sorry couldn't resist

Ack-Ack

Ack-Ack · « **Reply #124 on:** April 03, 2003, 11:26:17 AM »

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Originally posted by SlapShot
Thats what I expected ... always interpretation and conjecture ... never anything solid.

They also use the argument that these planes take no skill to fly and are super weapons that make the newbie as deadly as a vet. But then when you point out weaknesses of these planes and explain tactics that can exploit these weaknesses, the 'Uber' crowd then uses the arguments that it was against a newbie and not a vet in the 'Uber' plane, so therefore the tactics are invalid. But yet fail to recognize in their original arguement that they claim the Uber triplet planes take no skill to fly and makes anyone that flies them as deadly as a veteran.

It reminds me of a dog chasing its tail, the 'Uber' crowd just keeps going around in circles.

Ack-Ack

gofaster · « **Reply #125 on:** April 03, 2003, 11:35:04 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Ack-Ack
they claim the Uber triplet planes take no skill to fly and makes anyone that flies them as deadly as a veteran.

Exactly. For a P-38 to be superior in the vertical and turn, you have to know how to use the flaps in coordinated turns with the rudder and throttle. In a N1k2, such coordination isn't necessary. You just point and click.

You're good in a P-38. And I bet you pop flaps and dive brakes and dial in rudder and throttle. How many newbies have the smarts to do that?

Ack-Ack · « **Reply #126 on:** April 03, 2003, 11:42:11 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by gofaster
Exactly. For a P-38 to be superior in the vertical and turn, you have to know how to use the flaps in coordinated turns with the rudder and throttle. In a N1k2, such coordination isn't necessary. You just point and click.

You're good in a P-38. And I bet you pop flaps and dive brakes and dial in rudder and throttle. How many newbies have the smarts to do that?

I don't deploy dive brakes because the P-38L doesn't have any. P-38s have dive flaps and they aren't used to slow you down but give you positive lift in high speed dives to aid in recovery. So deploying them in an attempt to control your speed is a wasted efforts, the dive flaps aren't designed for that.

As for the other stuff, you kind of have to if you want to get all you can out of the P-38.

Ack-Ack

Kweassa · « **Reply #127 on:** April 03, 2003, 12:24:51 PM »

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As for the other stuff, you kind of have to if you want to get all you can out of the P-38.

...

and that, is exactly the point.

I was never the one who claimed N1K2s or La-7s were uber. I'll bet neither did the most of the guys who participated in this thread with a light heart, thought it was uber. As a matter of fact, I don't see anyone claiming it was uber either. They just don't like it. I don't like it.

Some planes can't transform its potential E-adv into the immediate tactical advantage by just pulling the stick. Planes that 'turn good' can do that. Planes that 'turn bad' cannot. Since the first and immediate method of 'combat tactic' starts with the ability to turn, it is simply undeniable that some planes are easier to use, than others. Learning to 'go around' to utilize whatever E-adv a plane holds, is not easy.

...

It is interesting that the common 'hated planes' form a 'threesome' with the La-7, N1K2 and Spitfire as a single group. Obviously, each one of them loses its 'claimed' uberness when they are alone. I have felt the helplessness of N1k2s in Combat Theater PAC setups, first-hand. It is obviously the mixed multi-engagement environment of the MA which makes those three planes form a 'group', with often frustrating results. La-7s stop other planes from escaping, and Spits and N1K2s usually finish it off.

To fight on equal terms, the other side who meets the combination of three planes, most often also come up with the exact same combination - thus, the stale environment full of "N1K2s, La-7s and Spits'.

...

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Annoyed at what moves? If you're dumb enough to fly level while extending with only 700 yards seperation, then you shouldn't be surprised if you get hit.

And this.. I suppose you've never met some of the N1K2 pilots who snipe jinking planes over 600 yards distance. The annoyance comes from the fact that some of those spray tards track the shots against a jinking planes.

700 yards is nearly 700 meters. The very fact that you are using the term 'only 700 tards separation', IMO, means something. I know, I know - 'realistic' or not, AH is built this way.

But that also gives a strong basis for complaints directed against the drastically differing performance of weapon types mounted on planes. Again the Spit and the N1K2 scores high points in the environment AH is set - some planes can't hit shi* even to a straight extending plane at 400 yards, and others can spray out and kill something at 700 yards.

...

Frankly, the usage is the largest evidence that the three plane types people hate, are not as dinky as you think. People hoarde to those planes because they are good planes, suited to MA use. They maybe not uber, but they are planes that can cover a pretty large skill gap. That is why people hate them. It is understandable.

J_A_B · « **Reply #128 on:** April 03, 2003, 01:33:46 PM »

The N1K2 really should use its flaps to get the most out of its performance potential.

J_A_B

SlapShot · « **Reply #129 on:** April 03, 2003, 01:45:19 PM »

Kweassa,

Granted there are a number of post in this thread that say that they don't like the numbers of these planes, but there is also a fair amount of "uber" whining at the same time ...

---------------------------------------------------

gofaster :

The N1k2 turns a good quality flight sim into a video arcade

But the flight model of the N1k2 defies the basic laws of physics and cheapens the game terribly.

humble :

the 25k "rice rocket" zero who seems to never compress as he zooms down to you at 5k
the hurricane "loopamatic" who can do 400 ft loops...those 20mm are always pointing at you

JB73 :

N1k2's do things that aren't physcially possible

Ike 2K#

If I only have limited flying time (like 30mins or 1 hour), i fly in "ARCADE" mode by flying spits, n1k2-Js, and la-7s

udet:

I think the La7 is the only plane in AH that defies the laws of physics. I saw it do things a plane shouldn't do

Replicant:

La7 - Everything about it is very uber... just pleased that the guns aren't as accurate as others

N1K2 - Seems to do very strange things. Can't explain what but nearly always you end up saying 'How on earth did they do that??'

-------------------------------------------------

Bottom line here is that those who can't and haven't figured out how to beat these planes are the ones that whine the loudest and longest. Numbers ... who cares ... All I seem to see are indefinate lines of 109s and 190s coming into the bases that I defend, but does that drive me to start pissin' and moaning to HTC to see if they can do something about it.

Nope ... ya just deal with it and learn how to bait them into flying out of their strenghts and into yours. If they don't, then it becomes a stalemate or they get you to fly out of your strengths and you die. Its the "push" and "pull" of this baiting and the execution to the "end game" thats the challenge, and that is what makes the game for me.

If HTC were to perk these "uber" planes and limit the numbers, then what planes would then balance the number of 109s, 190s, P51s, etc.

Its a "ying" and "yang" thing here in the MA. Eliminate one so-called problem, and the balance will be upset and then something new will evolve and then that will be the "uber" whine topic of never ending discussion.

J_A_B · « **Reply #130 on:** April 03, 2003, 01:51:23 PM »

"But the flight model of the N1k2 defies the basic laws of physics"

If you read history, you will find that the American pilots who faced it in the real deal often said the same thing--they claimed the N1K2's made "impossible" maneuvers and such.

J_A_B

SlapShot · « **Reply #131 on:** April 03, 2003, 02:33:25 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by J_A_B
"But the flight model of the N1k2 defies the basic laws of physics"

If you read history, you will find that the American pilots who faced it in the real deal often said the same thing--they claimed the N1K2's made "impossible" maneuvers and such.

J_A_B

Yes ... but did the US whine to the Japanese emperor and ask him to limit the production of the N1k2, or did the US adapt their ACM or develop a plane that could beat the N1k2 ?

GScholz · « **Reply #132 on:** April 04, 2003, 05:57:59 AM »

I don't hate any AC ... well maybe the Spit, but that's just because I suck at fighting them. There are AC combo's I hate however, La7/Hurricane 2-ship's are hard to fight.

Widewing · « **Reply #133 on:** April 04, 2003, 12:04:07 PM »

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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
I don't deploy dive brakes because the P-38L doesn't have any. P-38s have dive flaps and they aren't used to slow you down but give you positive lift in high speed dives to aid in recovery. So deploying them in an attempt to control your speed is a wasted efforts, the dive flaps aren't designed for that.

As for the other stuff, you kind of have to if you want to get all you can out of the P-38.

Ack-Ack

Actually, the NACA designed dive recovery flaps did two things.

First, they did generate drag, specifically to reduce dive acceleration.

Second, they shifted the center of lift forward along the chord, eliminating "tuck under" and inducing a pitch-up condition.

AH dive recovery flaps are of almost no value, either on the P-38 or the P-47D-30.

My regards,

Widewing

Replicant · « **Reply #134 on:** April 04, 2003, 03:18:31 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Kweassa
...

700 yards is nearly 700 meters. The very fact that you are using the term 'only 700 tards separation', IMO, means something. I know, I know - 'realistic' or not, AH is built this way.

Think it's nearer to 600 metres than 700 metres