Author Topic: Thank you for a kind offer, Martlet.  (Read 1480 times)

Offline Martlet

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« Reply #30 on: April 01, 2003, 11:40:08 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Dowding
I missed the word 'it', otherwise the sentence is fine.

Why is it flagrant nonsense?



I thought you were asking what is flagrant nonsense, asking for a definition.


stating that, after failing their objective, the troops began killing local "peasants" to raise their kill count is an outright lie, stated only to elicit a response.  ANYONE that has enough fundemental knowledge to even form an opinion, right or wrong, knows this.

I answered crap with crap.

Offline miko2d

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« Reply #31 on: April 01, 2003, 11:42:12 AM »
Dowding - save your eyes and fingers too. Follow my example.

 Don't we provide enough disagreable stuff for each other to argue about that does have some content? Or do you still hope to get something novel? If you do - however unlikely it is - post a note for me, please.

 miko
« Last Edit: April 01, 2003, 11:44:30 AM by miko2d »

Offline Furious

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« Reply #32 on: April 01, 2003, 11:44:02 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Dowding
...Why is it flagrant nonsense?

Because saying that is easier.

Offline Martlet

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« Reply #33 on: April 01, 2003, 11:45:07 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Furious
Because saying that is easier.


apparently you missed my explanation.

Gonna dive in?  Or just keep taking shots from the sidelines?

Offline Toad

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« Reply #34 on: April 01, 2003, 11:46:29 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Frogm4n
BUsh the first started the mess in somolia and clinton did the right thing pulling them out of there before it became another vietnam. We shouldnt have gone in there in the first place.


But... but ...... Frogman.... it was blessed by the sainted UN  Security Council as an approved operation. Surely we must all support the UN?

**********
 Civil War and famine
Long-time dictator Siad Barre is forced out of Mogadishu in January, 1991. Conflict between the Somali National Movement (SNM), Aidid's party, and other factions causes clan infighting, leading to famine and lawlessness throughout portions of the country. An estimated 300,000 Somalis die of starvation during the year of civil war that followed Barre's ouster.
 
March 3

 Ceasefire
Warring faction leaders sign a ceasefire agreement, which includes provisions to allow a UN monitoring mission into Somalia to oversee arrangements for providing humanitarian assistance.

 
April 24

 UN Military Observers to Somalia
UN Security Council approves UN operation in Somalia
, pursuant to the ceasefire agreement. In July, 50 unarmed UN military observers are deployed to Mogadishu to monitor the ceasefire.
 
August 15

 Operation Provide Relief (United Nations Operation in Somalia -- UNOSOM I)
UN humanitarian relief effort begins.
 
December 4

 US President George Bush launches Somalia intervention
Deteriorating security prevents the UN mission from delivering food and supplies to the starving Somalis. Relief flights are looted upon landing, food convoys are hijacked and aid workers assaulted. The UN appeals to its members to provide military forces to assist the humanitarian operation.[/color]

With only weeks left in his term as president, George Bush responds to the UN request, proposing that US combat troops lead an international UN force to secure the environment for relief operations. On December 5, the UN accepts his offer, and Bush orders 25,000 US troops into Somalia. On December 9th, the first US Marines land on the beach.

Bush assures the American people and troops involved that this is not an open ended commitment; the objective is to quickly provide a secure environment so that food can get through to the starving Somalis, and then the operation will be turned over to the UN peacekeeping forces. He assures the public that he plans for the troops to be home by Clinton's inauguration in January.

This US-led United Task Force (UNITAF) is dubbed "Operation Restore Hope."
 
January

 Clinton takes over
Clinton, like Bush, is anxious to scale down the American military presence in Somalia and let the United Nations take charge.

 
March 15 -28

 Addis Ababa Accords
The UN organized Conference on National Reconciliation in Somalia, held in Addis Ababa, Ethiopia, results in a resolution among faction leaders, including Aidid, to end the violence.

 May 4

 UN takeover; "nation building" (UNOSOM II)
In March, the UN authorizes UNOSOM II, a UN operation with expanded enforcement power, whose mandate stressed "the crucial importance of disarmament" (lol.. ring any bells?) of the Somali people. This UN-led mission was to take over from the US-led UNITAF. The expanded operation's new mission goes beyond simply providing humanitarian relief, calling for the UN to facilitate "nation building," to get Somalia back on its feet by restoring law and order, shoring up the infrastructure, and helping to set up processes for establishing a representative government. By the end of March, 28 different nations send contingents to Somalia in support of the new militarized operation. The US officially hands over the command to the UN on May 4.

While Clinton supported this expansion of the UN's mandate, he simultaneously ordered the number of US troops in Somalia to be reduced and replaced by UN troops. By June, only 1,200 US combat soldiers remained in Somalia, with 3,000 support troops.

 June 5

 Massacre of Pakistani troops; the hunt for Aidid
During an inspection of a Somali arms weapons storage site, 24 Pakistani soldiers are ambushed and massacred. The next day, the UN Security Council issues an emergency resolution calling for the apprehension of "those responsible" for the massacre. Though Aidid is not specifically named in the resolution, it is, in effect, a call to apprehend him. Twelve days later, Admiral Howe orders Aidid's arrest, offering a $25,000 reward for information leading to his apprehension.
 
June 8

 Special Forces requested
In the aftermath of the June 5 massacre, Admiral Howe first requests a counterterrorist hostage rescue force from Washington because they he they needed more extensive military capability to deal with the escalating violence. No such troops are forthcoming until Task Force Ranger is deployed in August.

June 12-16

 Attacks on Aidid's strongholds
US and UN troops begin attacking various targets in Mogadishu associated with Aidid, including a radio station and ammunition depots. The peacekeepers are now at war with Aidid.
 
July 12

 Abdi house attack
In a major escalation, American Cobra helicopters attack a house in south Mogadishu where a group of clan leaders are meeting, destroying the building with TOW missiles and cannon fire and killing a number of Somalis. Four western journalists who had gone to investigate are beaten to death by an angry mob.
 
July 29

 Last sighting of Aidid

August 8

 Americans killed by land mines
Four American military police are killed by a remote detonated land mine set off by Somalis. Two weeks later, six more US soldiers are wounded in a similar attack. This gets attention in America, and shortly thereafter, Task Force Ranger is deployed to Somalia.

 
August 26

 US Special Forces arrive in Somalia
US Army Task Force Ranger flies into Mogadishu -- 440 elite troops from Delta Force and the U.S. Rangers. Led by Major General William F. Garrison, their mission is to capture Aidid. They begin pursuing Aidid and his top lieutenants, with sporadic success.
 
September

 Carter negotiating with Aidid
In the midst of the manhunt, the Clinton administration opens a secret initiative to negotiate with Aidid. Former president Jimmy Carter, who had a previous relationship with Aidid, volunteers to act as intermediary. The US military commanders in Mogadishu are not informed about this new initiative. [/color]
 
September

 Request for armored reinforcements denied
In a decision that is later highly criticized, US Defense Secretary Les Aspin denies requests from General Montgomery for armored reinforcements, despite support for Montgomery's request from General Colin Powell. Aspin says that he did not want to create the appearance that the US was increasing forces in Somalia at a time when they were trying to reduce military presence. He later concedes,"Had I known at the time what I knew after the events of Sunday, [October 3]. I would have made a very different decision." In December, he is forced to resign.
 
October 3-4

 Firefight
Task Force Ranger's assault on the Olympic Hotel in Mogadishu, in search of Aidid, results in a seventeen hour bloody battle in which 18 US soldiers are killed and 84 are wounded.
 
October 7

Clinton's response: withdraw troops
President Clinton decides to cut his losses. He sends substantial combat troops as short term reinforcements, but declares that American troops are to be fully withdrawn from Somalia by March 31. The hunt for Aidid is abandoned, and US representatives are sent to resume negotiations with the warlord. Two weeks later, in a letter to President Clinton, General Garrison accepts full responsibility for what happened in the battle.
 
October 14

 Durant released
CWO Mike Durant, who had been taken captive by Aidid's men during the battle, is released along with a Nigerian prisoner.
 
March 25

 Remaining US forces leave Somalia
Approximately 20,000 UN forces remain, composed primarily of Asian and African contingents.

 
Spring

 Final UN withdrawal from Somalia

 
August 1

 Aidid dies
Aidid dies in hospital from bullet wounds received during an outbreak of fighting in Mogadishu.
*****************
 
But... but... but... but....

It was authorised by the UN Security Council and supported by the  28 different UN nations.

This is how it is SUPPOSED to be done, is it not Frogman?

Yet you say we shouldn't have done it?


   
 
 
   
   
 
 
:confused: Ambush in Mogadishu from PBS
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline BigGun

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« Reply #35 on: April 01, 2003, 11:51:27 AM »
Miko,

Do you really think US killed a bunch of people just to improve Stats? If so, you are a big idiot.

Online fd ski

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« Reply #36 on: April 01, 2003, 11:52:27 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Martlet
Hopefully your boy will grow up to receive a good american education, and forgive you for your ignorance.



Guess here, but i'm 99% sure that Miko2d will be looking for a jewish/russian school for his son simply because only those offer good education. Immigrant schools routinly top the charts of school compeitions in NY state due to their "unamerican" educational approach. Can't say i blame him.

Offline Martlet

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« Reply #37 on: April 01, 2003, 11:53:18 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by fd ski
Guess here, but i'm 99% sure that Miko2d will be looking for a jewish/russian school for his son simply because only those offer good education. Immigrant schools routinly top the charts of school compeitions in NY state due to their "unamerican" educational approach. Can't say i blame him.


care to post some state test stats?

Offline Saurdaukar

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« Reply #38 on: April 01, 2003, 12:05:53 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Martlet
care to post some state test stats?



You cant trust this stuff - afterall, teachers, frustrated that they didnt get their raise, went on a rampage and failed over 3000 students.

Thankfully, only 18 teachers were fired.

Offline miko2d

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« Reply #39 on: April 01, 2003, 12:06:13 PM »
fd ski: Guess here, but i'm 99% sure that Miko2d will be looking for a jewish/russian school for his son simply because only those offer good education. Immigrant schools routinly top the charts of school compeitions in NY state due to their "unamerican" educational approach. Can't say i blame him.

 Actually, I intend to do as much home-schooling as possible. That is what I am doing righ now - including participation on this board - assembling a curriculum.

 I found a decent russian school - if I am still living in Broolkyn in a few years. I am not sure what you mean by a "jewish" one. There are plenty of yeshivahs in Brooklyn but I was not at all sure they give such a good education, based on experience of my friends here. I would rather send him to a nearby Catholic school if I have to content with few hours of religious education a week as a price.

 AT the same time I am seriously considering a regular public school with a few hours a week home instruction to counteract the government/liberal propaganda. I do believe that the fact of studying and the inherited smarts - as well as cultural environment provided by family - contribute more to the result that quality of a school.

 I supeculate that stidying may be more interesting and involving for a child if it's put in context of "this is a war, let's counteract their lies with search for truth". All children are looking for a cause/excuse to rebel  and a way to be different - harnessing that impulse towards constructive purpose of education is my current hope.
 Let's see how it works out...

 miko

Offline Martlet

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« Reply #40 on: April 01, 2003, 12:08:14 PM »
Told you he had no interest in learning facts.

Someone actually takes the time to post them, and he completely ignores it.

I rest my case.

Online fd ski

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« Reply #41 on: April 01, 2003, 12:20:05 PM »
At work, don't have time for anything but quick search.

http://www.digitalcity.com/longisland/public_schools/

Top High Schools
Stuyvesant High School

http://www.insideschools.org/view/school/958/index

Quote

Immigrants and children of immigrants make up a large proportion of the student body

Offline miko2d

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« Reply #42 on: April 01, 2003, 12:54:34 PM »
Back to the original question.

 Toad, I appreciate you posting all that stuff. It was obvious that military did not know what they were supposed to do.

 Administartions changed, policies changed, UN goals changed, troop presence changed - drastically, the requests of actuall commanders on the ground were ignored. The goal of getting food for hungry people was replaced with "pacifying"/disarming the population and later with actively interfering into the country's political process and taking sides in the internescine warfare. So far so good.

 It looks like the purpose of the Mogadishu raid was not what was originally set when Congress approved sending our troops there - and neigher was accomplished then or elsewhere.
 A spectacular casualty ratio was a partiall consolation for our super-troops cornered by a rag-tag crown with allegedely few imbedded foreign Al-Qaeda fighters.

 I have only found time to read parts from the Black Hawk book and could not find any mention of the info on the web or elsewhere, so does anyone know anything about it.

 Once it was clear that the operation was a total screw-up and there was no Aideed on location and no reason to continue, was there any attempt to raise a white flag, call for a ceasefire and negotiate the safe extrication of our troops from the hotel and the God-forsaken country altgether and save thousands of lifes?
 How about such heresy as an outright surrender? Few more heavy weapons in the mob's hands, and the 18 dead might have become much greater number. The commanding officers could not know we would get off that "easily" and there was no reason to continue the operation.
 Unlike some, somalis were taking prisoners - and returning them back. It's not like americans never surrender. Could have made a god story - we spared all those people instead of pointlessly killing them. Next week it would have been forgoten. "Few americans make a wrong turn and stray into the enemy's hands. Fortunately no bloodshed." Does not make for a good but not long memorable headline.
 

BigGun: Do you really think US killed a bunch of people just to improve Stats? If so, you are a big idiot.

 I am a big idiot for may other reasons, may be for this one as well. Newertheless...
 There are a lot of people even on this board who believe that we should not have entered Somali as a part of UN contingent but that after the Mogadishu fiasco we should not have left because it "showed our weakness" and inspired our enemies. We should have stayed and did some more damage, achieved a "conclusive" victory, piled some more corpses, rearranged the landscape, etc. Only then could we leave with our face saved.
 If that is not "improving the stats" and how does that differ from scoring a few kills to make a specific bad situation appear better, please explain the difference to me.

 miko

Offline Hortlund

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« Reply #43 on: April 01, 2003, 01:07:29 PM »
I'm with Martlet here.

It's pretty obvious that miko was only trolling for attention. When Martlet didnt take the bait Miko got peed off and put him on ignore...priceless.

Offline Furious

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« Reply #44 on: April 01, 2003, 01:30:13 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Martlet
Told you he had no interest in learning facts.

Someone actually takes the time to post them, and he completely ignores it.

I rest my case.

This is to damn funny.  I, personally, am having a great time in this thread.

You have professed some expertise in this issue.

You refuse to share the expertise.

Someone else posts some information.

You claim victory.


hehehe, Golly-gee that's rich.


more entertainment please
F.