How gangbanging shapes the MA.

[Urchin]

I actually think the reason people want to fly fast planes (la-7, yak, P-51, Dora, etc.) is because it is literally impossible to get a 1v1 fight in the main arena.  This is not "hyberbole".... I haven't had a 1v1 fight in about 4 months now I think.  I think the best I usually manage when I'm flying by myself is 2 or 3 on 1.  As good as the Spit is 1v1 (and it is a great plane)... it (and every other plane except for the La7), sucks bellybutton in a 3 or 4 on 1 situation.

I guess this is sort of a whine, and sort of just a vent.  Why do you guys think planes like the 109F4, 190A8, La5, P47, c205, etc, etc etc.  are so rare?  It isn't because they suck.  The 109F4 is a very good plane, as is the C205.  The 190A8 can usually hold its own provided there is a good pilot at the controls.  Same with the P47.  The LA5 is better than any of the German planes, save the 109G10 and Dora, and even those are debatable.  Yet they see very little use in the MA.  I think that is a direct result of the gangbanging in the MA.  Why bother flying anything but the BEST turner or the BEST runner if you KNOW you are going to get attacked by 3 or 4 enemy planes?

Hell, I actually forsee the Spit losing the number 1 perch to the P-51 or the La7 as people get more and more tired of trying to fight X number of enemy planes (with X being greater than 2 in most cases) by themselves.  Perhaps the gangbanging is a direct result of the lopsided numbers in the MA that we've had for the past 5 months or so?  I do see that problem getting worse as more AW people come into the MA (last night the Bish were at 85 people, with the Knights at 130 and the Rooks at 150 [maybe I have those mixed up, can't remember], and tonight it was 85ish against 120 to 130 for the other two teams).  Why can't people even out the numbers? Do people really find it enjoyable to outnumber their opponent 2 to 1?
It kind of makes things a pain in the bellybutton for me, since the only fight I can ever find is me versus 3 or more enemies.

Anyway, I'm done for now I guess.  I was dweebing around in the toejamfire9, I guess I'll have to dust off the La-7 until the gangrape furor subsided in a few months.

[Soviet]

Yeah the gangbanging get's a bit dumb but what are you gonna do? i think people should even out the teams a bit i mean my squads on bishop cause we felt wrong about the knights having the number advantage all the time (at least when we left).  say 300 ppl are on usually 80ish are bish, 140ish are knit and 130ish are rook and usually knit and rook attack us all at once.

I refuse to take off unless i am confident the numbers are around even.  Whenever i see someone engaging i will join in if I think they may need the help but if it looks like the pilot is having a decent dogfight i continue on my merry way.

The best anti-gangbang tactic is to disengage when you see more enemies than friendlies.  Run towards friendlies even if you can't run well it will bring you to safety.  and when you have 2 or 3 enemies on your tail run towards friendlies screaming like a madman screaming "HELP ME!!!!"

The bottom line is if you flew into an area where you are outnumbered vastly you screwed up BIGTIME.

Gangbanging happend in WW2 also i've heard a story story somewhere of a 109 pilot who ran out of ammo and had 6 P-51s on his six so he just bailed.

Being an "alt weenie" helps sometimes too, hell when i wanna 1on1 i goto 20k and there's usually a few P-51 "alt monkeys" (as i like to call em  " up there.

[funkedup]

HTC have tried to create a fairly WW2-like arena and the teamwork (aka gangbanging) is part of that.  It's a team sport.  Get a wingman or join a squad.  If you want 1v1 then massively multiplayer sims are not for you.  Get an old copy of Fighter Duel or something.

And the main problem with trying to fly a Spit in the MA is not the style of fighting.  It's the fact that the Spits and other 1942 and earlier planes are forced to compete with 1944 and 1945 uberplanes.  As the scoring data have shown since the inception of this game, most of these early war planes are just not up to the task in the hands of the average pilot.

[ 11-18-2001: Message edited by: funkedup ]

[Urchin]

I'd disagree with you there, but maybe it is just me.  Either I'm signifcantly better than the average pilot, or when I was flying the Spit I was fighting people who couldn't find thier bellybutton with both hands even in your 1944-1945 "uberplanes".  With an altitude advantage, I was able to run down an La-7, and then kill him when he turned.  Had the tables been turned, he would have run me down and then not been able to hit me.  The Spits main problem is that it is to slow to get away from the 3 or 4 people that will dive into a 1 on 1 (or 2 or 3) fight.  And even that doesn't stop it from being used, because you can yank and bank and get lucky.  The problem is that most planes can't turn like a spit (and hell, the Spit is just about the same speed as the 109G6 and 190A5), and still aren't fast like a P-51 or LA7, so they are pretty much screwed.

[Wotan]

These maps concentrate the front on 2-4 airbases per front. The maps are to small.

Ideally I'd like to see the map where at one time a1 was at 10k then it got dropped to 5k or so. There were also vbases. Only problem theres no cv action in either this map or the beta map(which again is too small).

Also with all the new "stuff" since 1.08 everything is crowded.

I liked to see a med map with more airbases and vbases. or an eastern front map. even the current euro map if it could be fixed and more fields added would help spread the fights out.

The Mission planner is nothing more then a gangbang planner (or lag planner) 25-30 guys going to hit a base they usaully never get it. It always has been but spreading out the fields (I'm not saying fields further apart I'm saying a bigger map with alot more bases)there may be more smaller missions if not it would give those not involved to go somewhere else. Spreading it out a bit would also reduce the fps hit them some are having at the 50 man furballs.

Make no mistake I'm having a great time with these maps and gettin a few kills that i wouldn't ordinarily get. But Urchin is right in a sense. If you haven't got time in those not-so-fast planes theres no way at the current rate o'gangbang are any of the newer guys gonna get in them. So p51s and la7s or any faster plane will be there choice and they can be addictive.

IMHO the spitfire is the toughest plane in the main to fight against and they never come alone. I kill way more then kill me.

If we get a big enough map we can add a forth country the "Queens" and send all them spit pansies there......

[funkedup]

Urchin:   In WWII the fastest fighters generally ruled the skies.  It didn't take the various air forces very long to realize that if they had a speed advantage they could get kills without much risk.  If AH furball Darwinism is driving people into the types of planes that were historically dominant then it indicates to me that AH air combat must be a pretty decent representation of the real thing.

[funkedup]

Wotan:

     

IMHO the spitfire is the toughest plane in the main to fight against and they never come alone. I kill way more then kill me.

Must not be such a tough plane to fight then, eh?  You've obviously figured out how to use the speed of your aircraft to beat them.  Spits (as modeled in AH at least) have some critical weaknesses - admit it.

       

If we get a big enough map we can add a forth country the "Queens" and send all them spit pansies there.

I know you are kidding, but it always cracks me up when Luftwaffe guys gripe about fighting Spitfires.  I mean just what the heck kind of fighters do you think the Luftwaffe primarily fought against in the West from 1940 through 1943?  I'd think a "historical" LW pilot would be salivating at the thought of a sky full of Spitfires.  

[ 11-19-2001: Message edited by: funkedup ]

[jarbo]

I would like to see a spread out map as well.  However the radar sector alerts need to be expanded as well.  They are too specific on where the threat exactly is.

Jarbo

[Fariz]

Urchin, with more people online last months 1vs1 is harder to find, but still those "4 months" sound strange for me, because I can get 1vs1 almost every evening in MA.

After all, if you want to duel someone, contact him, ask him to go to duel arena, and you can fly 1vs1 against the equal or better pilot as long as you 2 will want. I do not see any problem here.

[Spivey]

I don't think so. The spits are so good at turning and the FE so bad at keeping up with drawing that tight of a turn, it's almost impossible to get the shot. The only real way to down a spit that is flown right is to gangbang.

I am sorry but that is just how it is. I cannot tell you how many times I have flown an LA7 only to get 1 kill or none, and not for lack of trying. All the4 spit has to do is pull up, roll right then blackout-yank that puppy back under and 99 times out of a hundred no one will hit it. I see it all the time. It's the turn and burn planes that are the real threat.

But if I see myself getting into a hopeless situation damn right I am running and I want a fast plane to do it in! The real bummer is I am penalized for doing it because the perks only go to the slower planes.

Now you put an LA7 and a spit together and I bet 4 out of 5 times the spit will win, given that no one is allowed to run home. Maybe more than that! And yet the spit will get more perks for that one kill than the LA7 did for the 4!!!! Rediculous!

And here is why the spit will win:
I had a guy challenge me to go to dueling arena. When I engaged him, every time WITHOUT FAIL he turned tail to me!!! In RL that is suicide! Then when I was within D1.2 or so he would WITHOUT FAIL pull the same damnable maneuver. Normally he would be ded every time he tried it, but because the change of direction is so terribly fast, what my FE sees as his present location is not even REMOTELY where he is really at!

I end up trying to pull lead on a plane that is at least 3 seconds behind the real one which is at that point saddling up on my 6. Oh the FE will catch up eventually but too late. The pilot who flies after what he sees will ALWAYS lose. He called that being a good pilot. I call that exploiting the weakness of internet lag.

So what do I do? I fly in groups. THAT is the measure of a good pilot, not whether or not you can properly exploit internet lag ina one on one.

[Seeker]

The FE can't keep up with a Spit?

then how the hell does it cope with a Hurricane's turn rate or an Fw's roll rate?

That's the lamest Spitwhine I've heard yet.

And I've heard a few since starting AH.

Added to which, even in the galaticaly improbable event that you're right, it's irrelevant. If you see hit sprites on your front end, however out of phase your FE may
be from the target's, you get the hits.

Does it never occur to you whiners that the Spit actually may have been a good plane?

Here we have a 1042/3 parts bin hybrid and you're still whining. What would the fuss be if we had a Spit modeled after the best of the breed, like the Lw rides?

[vmfRazor]

hmm I fly the knights. And spent many a month "In the Bucket" Every time we logged in Knights were down in numbers, getting hit on two fronts from Bish and Rooks. Now that things are kinda levelling out or we are starting to gain an advantage we are supposed to switch?? If I switch to rooks I am stuck there for 12 hours. The numbers move in cycles. Knights have the advantage then a little later as more Rooks come in and Knights leave the Rooks get the numbers. If everyone moved teams to as you say even the numbers, then when Knights leave and rooks show up then what, I can't switch back for 10 hours or so.

RazorDD

[stegor]

Only my two cents;
-some maps (mindanao ) seems made to concentrate fighting over the central point, and this develops furball in that zone.

-theres a bunch of people who doesnt like to wait in front of their monitor to gain altitude and have a good fight, so they roll to nearest furball, they furball, die reroll...and so on  

-if u wanna have 1vs 1 fight is better u go to h2h arena   . MA is something like war.

-if you dont want be gangbanged u have to fly smart! Fly with a wingman, look at the situation, have an high SA level, ever look for an escape point.

-some people dives on everyone is red fighting and shooting like animals, then when they realize they are low, no E, no speed, no friendlies around,only a bunch of enemies they whine "my spit and I are real great fighters, but we are ever outnumbered in this arena". Funny
   

[MadBirdCZ]

hehe 1 on 1 DO happen quite often... I dont know about others but when I find a 1on1 fight its always like this: I fly Tyffie about 18k... I notice single dot coming towards me... What a surprise its a La7 or P51 or 190 steaming towards me at 25k+ He tryes to zoom on me, I evade, he tryes few more times I always evade and gain a bit of alt... Then suddenly he realizes we are co alt and co E... Does he fight? Noooo! He dives like hell outa there runing home... if I try to pursuit him he keeps on runing until few friends of him come to help him.. .then he bravely turns the plane back and here we have 3 on 1   If you want good stories of similar encounters ask Orel... Shame that most of you do not speak Czech language because its always fun to listen to Orel on RW complaining about people refusing to fight 1on1    But generaly you are right there is not many 1on1 encounters happening but they are not rare yet. The only cure to gangbanging is to be the one who gangbangs   or at least not to fly alone... So solution is: Wing up with someone or join a squad...

_____
MBirdCZ

[ 11-19-2001: Message edited by: MadBirdCZ ]

[Wotan]

I know you are kidding, but it always cracks me up when Luftwaffe guys gripe about fighting Spitfires. I mean just what the heck kind of fighters do you think the Luftwaffe primarily fought against in the West from 1940 through 1943? I'd think a "historical" LW pilot would be salivating at the thought of a sky full of Spitfires.

 

I know exactly what those guys thought

"Jesus Christ here we go again......eat my 20 spit pansie,,,,,,,,,,,"

Look I 've jumped in a spit some time ago in the CT (spit V) and had little problem fighting with them in terrible odds and getting kills and home unscathed. I have upped a Seafire and done the same. And yes I even once got in a Spit ix and killed in it. But a mediocre pilot like myself can kill way beyond my skill level in it with ease. I dont dread spits I dread the pilots who know how to use them.  

Unlike some I dont fly in the main to recreate WW2 I am a single minded vulcher. I've shot down a temp with a g6 this tour (my 2nd temp) because a guy didnt know what hes doing. And bar far the number of spits I've shot down have been because the guys in them sucked.

In an 190f8 I'm:

Wotan has 57 kills and has been killed 14 times in the Fw 190F-8.

and most of my a2a kills are because guys see a slow moving target come in fast then when i barrel roll they dont have a clue.

I fly a zeke more then any other ac. And I do well in it as well. Yes each plane has it strengths and weakness but it is as if the spitfire was purposely designed for a combat flight sim. It by far, under the conditons in the main, is the best aircraft for the job. I dont care who flies them, or why, nor does it need to be perked.  

I just like a variety in my vulchin.

Like all good lwheenies I am much more interested in the eastern front. Lets face it thats where WW2 was fought , lost and won at.  While the western front contributed greatly to the speed at which germany was defeated the battles in the east were of epic scale.


Now back on topic

I refer you to my previous post about the arena size and compact "fronts"